Tarmac run-off

[dyewat808]

For anyone who saw the BTCC race recently at Silverstone, you may have noticed that the drivers were inventing a whole new Turn 1, to the point where some of them were going so wide at the corner that they were reaching the absolute limits of the tarmac run-off, never mind the track itself!

So, My-Trackers, what would you do to solve this problem? Would you simply slap down gravel again and be done with it, or be a little more inventive?

I have uploaded a picture of it - feel free to annotate it, or combine it with Sketchup or whatever. I'll post my idea soon.

[resir014]

I think in today's tracks people always put large run-off areas after a first corner so that drivers could go through it, which makes no challenge at all. Just see the new Nordkurve at Hockenheim, even La Source at Spa. The real challenge is how could you overtake as many drivers as possible off the line, without catching the gravel at the exit of the corner.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Why don't they use the run-off they use at Paul Ricard? That seems to do the trick.

Selby

[PawUloN]

Another idea would be breaking the big lump of tarmac with some stripes of gravel perpendicular to race line. SO if you would miss the corner, returning on track would be easy, but if you try to use runoff as additional road, you would be slowed down/bumped/spun off by those gravel parts.

[garcon]

I'd keep the tarmac run off but have it patrolled by a giant version of Sgt Bash from Robot Wars.

[Tathrim]

Originally Posted by garcon

I'd keep the tarmac run off but have it patrolled by a giant version of Sgt Bash from Robot Wars.

I can see it now:

marshall's report - SB killed Ferrari yellow. Literally.

[Quintin03]

I would use some form of artificial grass or another material that gives some good grip but not to much for the first ten meters and gravel beyond that. A small mistake will be punished as it should, you can't use the run off and even in a worst case scenario you'll be . The latter is always a concern I have certainly after having seen drivers pass out and drive on after a crash, even dying from the consequences.

[phoenix]

Using Copse (turn 1 at Silverstone) as an example I would suggest that the level of the run off area should be lower than the track by at least 6" (15cm) from the point that the curbing on the outside of the corner begins.

This would mean that recovering cars would then have to return to the circuit more or less where they left the track - though they may have to stop and turn round in order to do so. Alternatively, gravel behind the kerbs and a route back onto the circuit at the exit of the corner, but only via a 'chicane' of high kerbs and/or gravel pits designed to slow the cars right down, might be a solution.

As the run off area is supposed to be an area to safely stop wayward cars cars before they hit the barriers, and not meant to provide a means of taking a corner faster, either of the above would certainly deter drivers from using the run off area other than in an emergency.

[dyewat808]

Originally Posted by garcon

I'd keep the tarmac run off but have it patrolled by a giant version of Sgt Bash from Robot Wars.

That would be an effective deterrent!!

On a more serious note, I like all these ideas, what I can't understand is why they don't put them into practice, although I wouldn't be surprised if it was money. But still, PawUloNs idea seems cheap, and would certainly be effective, as well as Quintin's.

Funnily enough, phoenix, that idea was kind of what I had in mind, so by having the run-off off-set from the track by 6" you'd create a bumpier and slower transition. I like the sound of using gravel pits as chicanes.

And on a side-note, anyone noticed in the UK that Robot Wars Extreme is now showing on Dave?

[m1fcf]

Originally Posted by phoenix

Using Copse (turn 1 at Silverstone) as an example I would suggest that the level of the run off area should be lower than the track by at least 6" (15cm) from the point that the curbing on the outside of the corner begins.

I like the idea, but I think it could lead to some dangerous scenarios. e.g. a car is already spinning out of control, and then goes off the edge of this drop - I think this might cause the car to roll if the leading wheels dug in.

A shallow gravel bed (one that would arrest/slow the speed of the car, but still allow them to drive out) and built at the same level as the track might be a better option, especially if combined with a tarmac 'escape road' as was drawn.

Alternatives would be to scatter the large kerbstones as we saw at Monaco on the Swimming Pool chicane running at right angles to the track might be sufficient deterrent. Leaving space that you dont damage the car if you come off, but not enough space that you can make that part of the track the racing line. But even with these, hitting them at the wrong angle is a roll-over risk.

By far the best method is as current, watch/observer/report to race control and let penalties be applied.

[duke_toaster]

I'd go for either Paul Ricard style paint-of-tyre-doom (but the harsh stuff at the first level) for about ten metres, and then a good old gravel trap. You want penalty and out of control cars to be halted quickly, but most cars to be able to move off rather than be beached so we don't get SCs and red flags.

[Benny1664]

Surely the simple option is just to do as the drivers were warned and penalise them for using it. They only carried on doing it as no one got any punishment for it. In the 750MC, they are very strict on going off the track at places like Snetterton and we would have got penalties for the driving standards of the whole BTCC package..

[bio]

Say, would turning the runoff area into a minefield be considered going to far?

bio

[Yannick]

At last year's DTM round in Dijon Prenois (the best DTM race I've ever watched), they had a similar problem with the drivers going round some corners on lines that were leaving the track and continuing on the tarmac runoff. Hence, they painted some lines on the runoff area which were meant not to be crossed and placed stewards next to them. In case someone would go too far, he'd get a drivethrough penalty. It worked.

[graeme]

The tarmac runoff at Dijon is really broken & dirty, so any right thinking driver (i.e. not DTMers ) isn't going to use it on purpose. The trouble at Copse is that the runoff is better tarmac than the track itself!

Copse really is a bugbear of mine - it used to be such as challenging corner when there was a gravel trap around it (like Eau Rouge, Pouhon, etc). If F1 demands tarmac runoff, could they leave it for the GP and cover it with gravel for just about everything else? Even a light coating of gravel would encourage drivers not to use it. Ideally, the tarmac runoff would be a shallow "paddling pool" to keep the gravel in. (I guess the down side is there's going to be gravel dragged back on the track, but that happens everywhere there's a beach). They do something similar at Nurburgring, with the final hairpin/link to the Nordscheilfe.

[bio]

What do the racing rules say about deliberately using the tarmac runoff area to one's advantage?

bio

[Quintin03]

All drivers must use the area between the white lines from start of the race untill it's finished. Any other area can be used unless an advantage is gained through its use. If an advantage is gained the advantage must be nullified by letting the driver behind pass. If no other driver is around a penalty may be awarded. Something like that I suppose.

[graeme]

14.5. Drivers must use the track at all times. For the
avoidance of doubt:
(a) the white lines defining the track edges are
considered to be part of the track but the kerbs
are not, and;
(b) a driver will be judged to have left the track if no
part of the car remains in contact with the track.
(c) Should a car leave the track for any reason and
without prejudice to (d) below, the driver may
rejoin. However, this may only be done when it is
safe to do so and without gaining any advantage.
(d) Repetition of serious mistakes or the appearance
of a lack of control over the car (such as leaving
the track) will be reported to the Clerk of Course
and may entail the imposition of penalties up to
and including the exclusion of any driver
concerned.

[bio]

Thank you both!

bio

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by PawUloN

Another idea would be breaking the big lump of tarmac with some stripes of gravel perpendicular to race line. SO if you would miss the corner, returning on track would be easy, but if you try to use runoff as additional road, you would be slowed down/bumped/spun off by those gravel parts.

Close to what I had in mind, but not gravel strips cos that would just be a mess of gravel everywhere after the first couple through them (the stripes), thus destroying the benefits of the tarmac's grip.

What we have to do is retard those that are on a trajectory to disaster, but at the same time destroy the speed/balance of those that are taking advantage of a wider line.

I'd have a fan of kerbs radiating out from the white lines, not with 90 degree corners, but more sinusoidal wave (to stop abrading bikers that drop it or the helmets of upside down single seaters). Bit of study by the FIA should find the right frequecy and amplitude of wave to make these "kerbs" a real seasick maker.

hellish difficult to make tho

Here's the google of Copse

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?ie=...823a0d90f14a2e

[graeme]

The sleeping-policemen at the newly-tarmaced Les Combe at Spa don't seem to be doing too bad a job at discouraging drivers from using it.

[MGDavid]

The OP appears to be referring only to BTCC drivers; and as I understand it, BTCC runs to a different set of rules from the rest of UK motorsport, certainly in respect of penalties for contact with other cars, and excursions beyond the track limits. Don't forget "it's all about the show" and the very fact of this thread and a discussion means BTCC gets (a bit) more exposure and therefore commands viewers and hence advertising revenue to line the pockets of the professional teams.

[Bodysnatcher]

the OP may have referred to the BTCC, but other race series are every bit as bad. F3 are particularly bad too.. Must look at Les Combes now, had,nt seen or heard of it it before.

BTW BTCC still runs to the blue book rules, it's the penalties that they have their own control over.

[dyewat808]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

The OP appears to be referring only to BTCC drivers; and as I understand it, BTCC runs to a different set of rules from the rest of UK motorsport, certainly in respect of penalties for contact with other cars, and excursions beyond the track limits. Don't forget "it's all about the show" and the very fact of this thread and a discussion means BTCC gets (a bit) more exposure and therefore commands viewers and hence advertising revenue to line the pockets of the professional teams.

Hehe, I get the distinct impression you're not a huge fan of the BTCC..?

Anyway, I was kinda talking about tarmac run-off in general, not for any particular series, the BTCC just happened to be a great example (for me) of where it doesn't really work.

Bodysnatcher, haven't seen F3 recently, so I wouldn't know, but in today's F1 race I know they were warned about exactly this problem, so my guess is its affecting almost all levels of motor-sport now.