NZTC 2015/2016

[CDM]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

The same thought crossed my mind promax, if its a V8 touring car, and its not going to turn things on it head why not open it up a bit?

Yes but isn't that P word an issue for some?

I mean if they cant get decent parity between V8ST & TLX cars then whats the hope if you add hybrids in??

Also would that actually bring any cars out of sheds, or would it just pinch them from other existing classes?

It will be an interesting year in the V8SC 2nd level Dunlop Series this year with 2 different spec cars & will be interesting to see how their season progresses. I think the P word will feature prominently.

[Martin Collins]

Originally Posted by CDM

Yes but isn't that P word an issue for some?

I mean if they cant get decent parity between V8ST & TLX cars then whats the hope if you add hybrids in??

Also would that actually bring any cars out of sheds, or would it just pinch them from other existing classes?

It will be an interesting year in the V8SC 2nd level Dunlop Series this year with 2 different spec cars & will be interesting to see how their season progresses. I think the P word will feature prominently.

Lets just say the V8 rules allowed you to run whatever engine/trans you wanted in a V8ST or TLX car.... the whole ''Lack of money'' and ''Lack of interest'' would just go away. IMO competitors in this country just like freedom of cheque book racing, just look at the classes that are doing well.

[promax]

Originally Posted by Martin Collins

Lets just say the V8 rules allowed you to run whatever engine/trans you wanted in a V8ST or TLX car.... the whole ''Lack of money'' and ''Lack of interest'' would just go away. IMO competitors in this country just like freedom of cheque book racing, just look at the classes that are doing well.

Agree

[JamesK]

Originally Posted by Martin Collins

Lets just say the V8 rules allowed you to run whatever engine/trans you wanted in a V8ST or TLX car.... the whole ''Lack of money'' and ''Lack of interest'' would just go away. IMO competitors in this country just like freedom of cheque book racing, just look at the classes that are doing well.

There are classes out there with those rules, and the TLX or ST's can run in those now if they wish to.
I'm sure there are competitors in those existing open classes that have no interest at running T1 events and that schedule.
So why dilute those classes that you have indicated are doing so well.

As Promax indicated
Lack of interest? Too many burnt bridges? Lack of money?
Add to that the years of infighting between ST, TLX and MSNZ has given no confidence in the sport to any prospective sponsors. Why would you invest when the public spats between these groups has shown that the sport in general was in such a bad state.
Those sponsorship dollars will have gone elsewhere, and I'm sure will not return just because someone says the problems have been resolved.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by promax

Agree

Fall of your key-board's laughing, but I also agree with Martin, because after all the years trying to make a level playing field work, I am forced to conclude it won't work in this country for one reason, and one reason alone, and I am happy to share my opinion on this below.

The problem, as I see it, is not so much the lack of money in NZ, and our tiny population, but a lack of motivation by people with money but not quite the ability to foot it with the very best drivers that dominate any "level playing field" motor racing in NZ,including my own responsibility, Ssangyong Actyon Sport Racing.

Allow me to elaborate, I know for a fact that we, SRS, will lose at least 3 or more, of our very good ute competitors at the end of this season because they can't stand being beaten by someone in identical machinery. They will either drop out of motor racing for ever, or move on two a category were either money or engineering ability can make a difference, or so they hope.

My point being, that even in such a low cost category, competitors drift away if they can't see themselves getting at or near the sharp end.

Lets just say, as Martin Collins dared to suppose, that we allowed 2 and 4 door Touring cars within certain defined criteria, e.g.. maximum wheel sizes, minimum weight, minimum cockpit/glasshouse size, no ABS, and only normally aspirated engines etc, we might be very surprised what comes out of the 'woodwork', so to speak.

Why? because those people with money and some ability, fancy their chances a lot better if they could put in the engine and gearbox with the best power to weight performance etc, just as many do with their $300K plus Muscle Cars at this present moment.

Re-powering an ST or TLX car with pretty much whatever you want will appeal to a great deal of people, so buying a donor race ready ST or TLX car for not much more than a $100K, and re-powering it with any normally aspirated engine, that will/must run on 98 octane pump gas, will have very real appeal to a far greater competitor base than owning and running a tightly controlled ST car.

You only have to go back in time to see the appeal of the hugely diverse range of cars and engines that the NZ Saloon Car Championship had it in its hey-day before the MSNZ declared in 1983/84 that Group A would become the Premier Saloon/Touring Car Championship. When that all collapsed [because of the lack of competitors] Tranzam took off, but again collapsed in 2003 and suddenly MSNZ minimum decided it would be a good idea to take over Greg Lancaster's Transam Lights, which had by then morphed into NZV8's, as the way forward, the rest is history.

[Martin Collins]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Fall of your key-board's laughing, but I also agree with Martin, because after all the years trying to make a level playing field work, I am forced to conclude it won't work in this country for one reason, and one reason alone, and I am happy to share my opinion on this below.

The problem, as I see it, is not so much the lack of money in NZ, and our tiny population, but a lack of motivation by people with money but not quite the ability to foot it with the very best drivers that dominate any "level playing field" motor racing in NZ,including my own responsibility, Ssangyong Actyon Sport Racing.

Allow me to elaborate, I know for a fact that we, SRS, will lose at least 3 or more, of our very good ute competitors at the end of this season because they can't stand being beaten by someone in identical machinery. They will either drop out of motor racing for ever, or move on two a category were either money or engineering ability can make a difference, or so they hope.

My point being, that even in such a low cost category, competitors drift away if they can't see themselves getting at or near the sharp end.

Lets just say, as Martin Collins dared to suppose, that we allowed 2 and 4 door Touring cars within certain defined criteria, e.g.. maximum wheel sizes, minimum weight, minimum cockpit/glasshouse size, no ABS, and only normally aspirated engines etc, we might be very surprised what comes out of the 'woodwork', so to speak.

Why? because those people with money and some ability, fancy their chances a lot better if they could put in the engine and gearbox with the best power to weight performance etc, just as many do with their $300K plus Muscle Cars at this present moment.

Re-powering an ST or TLX car with pretty much whatever you want will appeal to a great deal of people, so buying a donor race ready ST or TLX car for not much more than a $100K, and re-powering it with any normally aspirated engine, that will/must run on 98 octane pump gas, will have very real appeal to a far greater competitor base than owning and running a tightly controlled ST car.

You only have to go back in time to see the appeal of the hugely diverse range of cars and engines that the NZ Saloon Car Championship had it in its hey-day before the MSNZ declared in 1983/84 that Group A would become the Premier Saloon/Touring Car Championship. When that all collapsed [because of the lack of competitors] Tranzam took off, but again collapsed in 2003 and suddenly MSNZ minimum decided it would be a good idea to take over Greg Lancaster's Transam Lights, which had by then morphed into NZV8's, as the way forward, the rest is history.

Right on the money Mark.

[socram]

Spot on Mark. The last paragraph basically says a lot. "Hugely diverse range of cars and engines"...

All you needed to add was "and several different classes".

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by socram

Spot on Mark. The last paragraph basically says a lot. "Hugely diverse range of cars and engines"...

All you needed to add was "and several different classes".

Agreed, several different class's but all cars must be V8's and based on 2 or 4 saloon car's capable of seating 4 adults in road trim.

[Goat Boy]

Could we not include 6's, 10's and 12's? That would make it really interesting...

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Could we not include 6's, 10's and 12's? That would make it really interesting...

Hi GB, I am not suggesting Formula Libre, on the contrary, what I am suggesting is that there is a lot of V8 Saloon cars that have no other place to run but in GT event's with no possibility of TV etc, that would probably jump at the chance to be part of a premier category. I also believe that some of the modified ST's and TLX cars would also be keen to race if they were made to feel welcome.

[socram]

Agree with GB. Formula Libre is effectively 'Free Formula' and donkeys years ago was a mix of various oddball cars where there were insufficient entries to form a class, and also predated historic single seaters.

Saloons with either 6/8/10/12 cylinder engines could lead to some epic David vs Goliath battles, which is what most up us enjoy and what is missing from today's racing.

Maybe that is just one major ingredient that is missing from most of today's one class racing - a genuine crowd pleaser.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by socram

Agree with GB. Formula Libre is effectively 'Free Formula' and donkeys years ago was a mix of various oddball cars where there were insufficient entries to form a class, and also predated historic single seaters.

Saloons with either 6/8/10/12 cylinder engines could lead to some epic David vs Goliath battles, which is what most up us enjoy and what is missing from today's racing.

Maybe that is just one major ingredient that is missing from most of today's one class racing - a genuine crowd pleaser.

Yes there must be a few snarly BMW 635 engines out there not to mention some old Jag V12's and even newer engines that somebody would love to turn into racing screamers!

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Yes there must be a few snarly BMW 635 engines out there not to mention some old Jag V12's and even newer engines that somebody would love to turn into racing screamers!

Fill your boots guys, but thats not were I believe the V8 Touring class should be heading, there is more than enough competitors out there that will meet fair and reasonable criteria that will encourage much bigger fields that we have now, with out resorting to open Formula Libre.

But hey nobody is stopping you getting other like minded people together, just get off your keyboard and start organising things on the ground, which is precisely what I and other similar like minded people will do over the next few months.

I am reminded of the old proverb "if at first you don't succeed, try, try, try again"

[Goat Boy]

Well let's hope someone can find a winning formula

[CDM]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Yes there must be a few snarly BMW 635 engines out there not to mention some old Jag V12's and even newer engines that somebody would love to turn into racing screamers!

Ever watched historic Touring cars in the SI, because that's what you are describing

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Fill your boots guys, but thats not were I believe the V8 Touring class should be heading, there is more than enough competitors out there that will meet fair and reasonable criteria that will encourage much bigger fields that we have now, with out resorting to open Formula Libre.

Totally agree!

There are already "open formula" "saloon" classes in both the North & South Islands so don't quash those to meet the NZTC needs.

The key here is to do something to get cars out of sheds, do something to boost the overall number of competitors at a meeting. Taking (e.g.) 10 cars from NZGT and adding them to the NZTC field doesn't realistically achieve anything.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Fall of your key-board's laughing, but I also agree with Martin, because after all the years trying to make a level playing field work, I am forced to conclude it won't work in this country for one reason, and one reason alone, and I am happy to share my opinion on this below.

The problem, as I see it, is not so much the lack of money in NZ, and our tiny population, but a lack of motivation by people with money but not quite the ability to foot it with the very best drivers that dominate any "level playing field" motor racing in NZ,including my own responsibility, Ssangyong Actyon Sport Racing.

Allow me to elaborate, I know for a fact that we, SRS, will lose at least 3 or more, of our very good ute competitors at the end of this season because they can't stand being beaten by someone in identical machinery. They will either drop out of motor racing for ever, or move on two a category were either money or engineering ability can make a difference, or so they hope.

My point being, that even in such a low cost category, competitors drift away if they can't see themselves getting at or near the sharp end.

Lets just say, as Martin Collins dared to suppose, that we allowed 2 and 4 door Touring cars within certain defined criteria, e.g.. maximum wheel sizes, minimum weight, minimum cockpit/glasshouse size, no ABS, and only normally aspirated engines etc, we might be very surprised what comes out of the 'woodwork', so to speak.

Why? because those people with money and some ability, fancy their chances a lot better if they could put in the engine and gearbox with the best power to weight performance etc, just as many do with their $300K plus Muscle Cars at this present moment.

Re-powering an ST or TLX car with pretty much whatever you want will appeal to a great deal of people, so buying a donor race ready ST or TLX car for not much more than a $100K, and re-powering it with any normally aspirated engine, that will/must run on 98 octane pump gas, will have very real appeal to a far greater competitor base than owning and running a tightly controlled ST car.

You only have to go back in time to see the appeal of the hugely diverse range of cars and engines that the NZ Saloon Car Championship had it in its hey-day before the MSNZ declared in 1983/84 that Group A would become the Premier Saloon/Touring Car Championship. When that all collapsed [because of the lack of competitors] Tranzam took off, but again collapsed in 2003 and suddenly MSNZ minimum decided it would be a good idea to take over Greg Lancaster's Transam Lights, which had by then morphed into NZV8's, as the way forward, the rest is history.

I can remember us talking about this on the old Boss forum 10 years ago and it's been talked and debated about here as well. I've always been totally opposed or at a minimum lukewarm to major components or series themselves being "spec" or "control". These ideas have been pushed on motorsport over the past 20 years under the guise of saving money and making it fair. However it never seems to save much money nor is it ever fair, because the reality is that motorsport is always expensive and nothing in life is fair or equal or for that matter utopian perfection. I think a "level playing field" is a mythical unicorn.

I was not a fan of the spec engine in V8ST. I thought it would contribute to killing interest in time and it did. Ultimately what makes motorsport interesting to people is competition in all things. Spectators want to see the limits pushed in all areas. Once a series is simply all about every competitor buying the same exact part off the shelf with no development room for anything it kills the interest for the spectator and the competitor. I think if I was a person that spent hundreds of thousands or millions on the same car as everyone else with the same engine, same tires and same parts I'd probably get bored and if I had to watch that year in year out, I'd get bored too and I have.

I never understood why the socialist mindset took over motorsport as it was always very capitalist and competition oriented. Competition is nothing to be scared of.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by socram

Spot on Mark. The last paragraph basically says a lot. "Hugely diverse range of cars and engines"...

All you needed to add was "and several different classes".

From what I have seen in motorsport series worldwide once you go class crazy with well we gotta have a class for this and a class for that, the spectators don't give a damn and neither do the competitors at some point. Anytime I see a multi class field I see a weak field. I understand the purpose for it in non competitive environments like for old historics, after you Claude and all that, but for what I would class as either professional or competitive motorsport where people are racing to win, multi class racing is a part of the modern day mindset of everyone getting a participation trophy or ribbon. Let winners win and losers will either lift their game or not. There will always be backmarkers and there has been since motor racing began 120 years ago.

Obviously there will be some rules or framework that has to exist. But have one touring car class and that is it.

[Martin Collins]

So the class is sorted, TLX and ST with any engine/trans combo. Someone just needs to write a couple of rules as in this country we don't like too many of those.

Next, tracks need to put in TV spec CCTV cameras all around the track and pits. It seems unlikely we will ever see the huge crowds back at anything but the biggest events in this country so the tracks could sell the rights to watch the CCTV footage on any weekend. You could watch a corner, a car or the pits if thats what you are into. All of this from the comfort of your couch.

[socram]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

From what I have seen in motorsport series worldwide once you go class crazy with well we gotta have a class for this and a class for that, the spectators don't give a damn and neither do the competitors at some point. Anytime I see a multi class field I see a weak field. Obviously there will be some rules or framework that has to exist. But have one touring car class and that is it.

Go back to the pre-war Brooklands/Donington days, Le Mans, British Touring cars of the 1960's, World sports car championship, Bathurst of the 1980's etc. and deny that wasn't better racing than what we have now?

They all had classes and generally, it was by engine capacity - and guess what? The racing was fantastic (not too sure about Brooklands, but at least the crowds were huge!) as we got the occasional David v Goliath battles, and cars that were fantastically economical on fuel able to make up ground as the giants made their fuel stops.

Multiple classes on different grids as you are describing is not the same thing at all. It is what we have now anyway and what has effectively killed the spectator interest. It certainly killed mine. A Tier 1 meeting not so long ago at Taupo, with just 67 cars entered was going to attract the spectators, when a gentlemanly 'after you Claude' classic meeting had over 200 cars? No contest. Some spectators from the former migrated to the latter during the day as one or two came to chat and tell me so!

Classic and historic motorsport might seem to you to be 'after you Claude', but it isn't dodgem car racing either, with drivers showing due respect to other cars, which sadly, is what has marked down some of the one class racing.

Look at the horrendous panel damage in the Aussie V8s, week after week, most of it caused, not by a driver simply going too fast, but a driver trying to barge his way through. When I grew up we had a specific term for that. Stock car racing.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by socram

Go back to the pre-war Brooklands/Donington days, Le Mans, British Touring cars of the 1960's, World sports car championship, Bathurst of the 1980's etc. and deny that wasn't better racing than what we have now?

They all had classes and generally, it was by engine capacity - and guess what? The racing was fantastic (not too sure about Brooklands, but at least the crowds were huge!) as we got the occasional David v Goliath battles, and cars that were fantastically economical on fuel able to make up ground as the giants made their fuel stops.

Multiple classes on different grids as you are describing is not the same thing at all. It is what we have now anyway and what has effectively killed the spectator interest. It certainly killed mine. A Tier 1 meeting not so long ago at Taupo, with just 67 cars entered was going to attract the spectators, when a gentlemanly 'after you Claude' classic meeting had over 200 cars? No contest. Some spectators from the former migrated to the latter during the day as one or two came to chat and tell me so!

Classic and historic motorsport might seem to you to be 'after you Claude', but it isn't dodgem car racing either, with drivers showing due respect to other cars, which sadly, is what has marked down some of the one class racing.

Look at the horrendous panel damage in the Aussie V8s, week after week, most of it caused, not by a driver simply going too fast, but a driver trying to barge his way through. When I grew up we had a specific term for that. Stock car racing.

I don't have any memory of the pre war era. In regards to the Tier 1 events I think everyone can agree it's been a mess for a while and that's what we are talking about in terms of a better long term solution.

Sure some of the guys in historics have a go but like I said there is a difference between that world and one oriented towards professional and competitive racing. If as a driver I was racing in a historic car in a historic race, my mentally would be different from running in a series like TRS. I have seen tons of multi class in one field racing over time and in the professional competitive world I think it's a complete dud and snoozer. If people want to compete for a participation trophy or have to get squirreled away into a class to protect their ego, there are tons of venues for that.

I compete in another very different very competitive sport and we also suffer at times from diluting the field with a bazillion classes and rankings. I find it extremely frustrating as a competitor. Not only is motorsport ruined with this but other sports as well.

I've been to a number of Canterbury Car Club race days and they lump a bunch of different cars into a couple of classes that all run their own race. The single seaters for instance I saw everything from Formula Holden and Atlantics running with Formula Ford and everyone seemed fine with it. Even at a club level it's not necessarily to butcher a field with classes.

For a competitive, interesting touring car class I would devise a simple rule set and let it rip. Banish words and phrases like "level playing field", "control parts", "spec parts", etc.

[Southern Man]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

For a competitive, interesting touring car class I would devise a simple rule set and let it rip. Banish words and phrases like "level playing field", "control parts", "spec parts", etc.

Add the words "Parity" and "Franchise" to your list and you will clear a number of other issues out of the way too.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Martin Collins

So the class is sorted, TLX and ST with any engine/trans combo. Someone just needs to write a couple of rules as in this country we don't like too many of those.

Next, tracks need to put in TV spec CCTV cameras all around the track and pits. It seems unlikely we will ever see the huge crowds back at anything but the biggest events in this country so the tracks could sell the rights to watch the CCTV footage on any weekend. You could watch a corner, a car or the pits if thats what you are into. All of this from the comfort of your couch.

It's like with a lot of rock bands. It used to be you went on tour to support and drive sales of records and now you release a record as an excuse to get out and tour. Bands say they don't make the money on the media like they used to but make the money touring.

TV helped motorsport a lot at one point and drove a lot of income into the sport. The world has changed now, TV is dying and evolving. I think motorsport has been a little behind the curve with new technology and media. Starting afresh I'd forget TV packages and all of that. I'd focus on building an exciting motor racing series that people eagerly want to see and something they would be willing to pay to see in person. For media you can reach people quicker with social media and things like youtube. I'd cut in short 1 to 2 minute clips here and there on your media sites to tempt and tease more interest from people.

I would never do live TV or any costly TV deals until the tracks are rammed with people. Same with having live streaming online. If I can sit on my butt and watch it all live there is not a lot of incentive to get out and get involved or see it myself.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Southern Man

Add the words "Parity" and "Franchise" to your list and you will clear a number of other issues out of the way too.

Yes "parity" needs to be stood out in the middle of the track and run over with his buddy otherwise known as "a level playing field".

Franchises have worked in some cases and it all depends on the situation.

[CDM]

Is there any V8 NZTC racing coming up anytime soon??

One would think not... I mean its a week out & there has been f all in any media about anything. Hell not even a post on here for nearly a month!

Perhaps this thing really has died, perhaps that's why when the Toyota 86's were on TV recently, they referred to themselves as NZ's premier saloon category...

[Goat Boy]

I thought the season finished ages ago.

But no! It would seem there is an event on at Pukekohe next weekend! Has anyone actually entered?