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Old 19 Feb 2008, 16:49 (Ref:2132683)   #91
duke_toaster
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duke_toaster should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridduke_toaster should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
NASCAR races, though, are predomenatly on ovals. Fitness is less of an issue there.

And what happened in the 70's is not relevant now due to current safety rules. Regarding Clipal, IMO it's lunacy the current format and should be scrapped - stick the two legs together in to one 500km race, and make it two (or even three) driver.

Also, there's the problem of television coverage. Would a TV broadcaster really want to show a two to four hour race, given that motorsport is ALREADY poorly covered?
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Old 19 Feb 2008, 17:10 (Ref:2132706)   #92
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Originally Posted by duke_toaster
The one hour format with two pit stops would not work with any touring car format, three races like BTCC is the best
I actually think the current BTCC format aint that hot. 3 identical miniature sprint races? C'mon.

If to change the current DTM 1h single race I would much prefer eg a 1x15-20min sprint followed by a 1x40-45min feature race.

BTW, have you ever seen the current STCC format? It's 1x40min with 1 pit stop. That works out pretty well IMO.

Last edited by stedevil; 19 Feb 2008 at 17:15.
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Old 19 Feb 2008, 17:28 (Ref:2132726)   #93
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mattt should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridmattt should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by stedevil
I actually think the current BTCC format aint that hot. 3 identical miniature sprint races? C'mon. ...
This format allows for quick, action packed races. full of activity. And how much overtaking do you get? A hell of a lot. Especially with the reversed few rows in the third race.
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Old 19 Feb 2008, 18:06 (Ref:2132751)   #94
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redshoes should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridredshoes should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridredshoes should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by racer69
One driver racing for that length of time is no problem (unless they are extremely unfit)
It's not driver fitness or even car reliability that is the issue here, it's TV. Endurance type events may have works 20 years ago but in today's TV-friendly world it's a non-starter.

The DTM in particular lives and dies by TV coverage, and there's no way a four hour event would get the sort of mainstream coverage the DTM demands.

Look at the FIA GT Championship, by definition an endurance based series, but a few years ago even they were faced with reducing races from 3 to 2 hours to keep the TV stations happy.
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Old 19 Feb 2008, 19:26 (Ref:2132805)   #95
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werner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridwerner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Telly has found a good way to devote less time at long races or other events. They call it highlights. If you have a show of an hour for a race of 3 hours, the first half hour highlights of the first 2,5 hour, and the last 30 minutes live would make it happen. The 2-hour races FIAGT have now are ok, but it's silly to change drivers in such a race. Endurace racing must imo at least mean that a driver does over 1,5h in the car, less is more of a GP-distance.
Having said that, the DTM-format is fine by me, if they just had more manufacturers and less aero it would be great. And a Dutch driver init would add to the fun for me. Albers, Huisman, Bleekemolen, Verstappen or Coronel would be good to see.
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Old 19 Feb 2008, 22:28 (Ref:2132914)   #96
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This format allows for quick, action packed races. full of activity. And how much overtaking do you get? A hell of a lot. Especially with the reversed few rows in the third race.
Which asks the question, what is the point of race 2 in BTCC? An extra chance to lose out on points if you happen to bin your car in race 1?

No, the only things better in BTCCs format then the WTCC is that the reversed grid is randomized between 6-10 + that they dont do a lot of stupid streecourses where passing is nigh impossible.

Of course, in BTCC the officials also seem to be next to blind and pretty much never deal out punishments for running a competitor off the track. Sure, it makes things look "cooler and more exiting" since it leads to more passing, but it's not exactly fair racing is it? More like "biggest bully wins".

2 races of different lenght would actually be a lot more interesting since it requires completely different setup of the car as well as promote different aspects of driver skills. IMO that beats out the "3 identical sprintraces" format by a mile. I even much prefer the STCC 1x40min + 1PS format over the BTCC one.
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Old 20 Feb 2008, 05:56 (Ref:2133055)   #97
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racer69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridracer69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by duke_toaster
Regarding Clipal, IMO it's lunacy the current format and should be scrapped
In Endurance racing, the likes of the Le Mans & Daytona 24 Hours, its written into the rules that a single driver may stay in the car for three & a half hours in a single stint anyway, and only have an hour rest in between doing it again if they want. It isn't a rule solely dedicated to Australia.


The only problem i see with the STCC format mentioned (and same goes with the DTM format, and with most of the V8Supercar races) is the contrived pitstops, why are we stopping for tyres when they aren't needed. I'm a believer that the racing & the passing should be done on the track, not in the pits.
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Old 20 Feb 2008, 08:18 (Ref:2133110)   #98
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werner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridwerner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
If you want to do longer races with S2000-cars it may be nescessary to have the same amount of pitstops for everybody. If this is not the case, rearwheeldriven cars have to less often to change tires, giving an extra disadvantage. This is unfair because technical rules are made with sprint-races in mind.
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Old 21 Feb 2008, 04:32 (Ref:2133837)   #99
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If you want to do longer races with S2000-cars it may be nescessary to have the same amount of pitstops for everybody. If this is not the case, rearwheeldriven cars have to less often to change tires, giving an extra disadvantage. This is unfair because technical rules are made with sprint-races in mind.
Indeed. The way it's done in STCC is
* Minimum 1 pitstop during the pitting window (most of the race except first and last half a duzzen laps)
* Change a minimum of 2 tires. FWD usually change the 2 front, RWD usually change left or right side (depending which side is worn the most in the corners).
* Only 2 guys are allowed to work with the car (so while you can also change 3-4 tires, it effectively more then doubles your Pitstop time)

It actually turns out to be quite an interesting addition to the race IMO, especially when you have semi wet conditions. Should you start on wets, slicks or a mix of the two? If you start with 1 type, do you change 2 or 4 tires if the track gets wetter/dries out? If you have or change to mixed tires, do you have the slicks on front or rear axel or on 1 side?

Quote:
Originally Posted by racer69
why are we stopping for tyres when they aren't needed
With the same line of though, why do "we" change tires between qualifying/races, or in fact the entire season?

Tires are designed to last a specific amount of time before they start losing performance relatively. You dont pick a tire that wears down after 20 laps when you need to go 40 and you dont pick a low grip tire that will last 40 when you only will do 20 laps...

One uses the tires that gives the best performance for the decided upon rules. That is, you pick the tires after the rules, not the other way around.
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Old 21 Feb 2008, 08:36 (Ref:2133915)   #100
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werner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridwerner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
In STCC, as in WTCC and BTCC that is not true. You pick the tyres that are supplied by the tyresponsor.
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Old 21 Feb 2008, 16:34 (Ref:2134324)   #101
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In STCC, as in WTCC and BTCC that is not true. You pick the tyres that are supplied by the tyresponsor.
And the tyre sponsor brings a tyre that fits the format...
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Old 21 Feb 2008, 17:13 (Ref:2134363)   #102
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werner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridwerner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
That is what you hope for anyway. But it doesn't matter, because any FWD-car wil shred any tyres faster than RWD-cars. So in longer races you have to regulate the amount of pitstops for each car, otherwise the BMW's have to pit less often. Unless you have tyres that even with FWD-cars, last the whole race easily. I don't know if such tyres exists for touringcars?
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Old 2 Oct 2019, 10:48 (Ref:3931430)   #103
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tentenmotor should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I agree with this, the Aston would be a perfect DTM car!
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