[BTCC] BTCC 2018 - Knockhill - Rounds 22, 23, 24

[Racer65]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

if Sutton would be in normal car and would get same results nobody would moan!!

but that car is so controversial and now impossible to build by anyone else due to rule changes and you can see it can corner so much better in this conditions it's simply impossible to beat

If it's all about the car why is the other one 26th then? All the cars have their strengths and weaknesses and there was nothing stopping someone else building one years before BMR did. It's not BMR's fault that teams whined after the fact.

The attitude people are showing is really unfair on Sutton. He is head and shoulders the best driver out there IMO.

[Evantra]

Turkington keeps 2nd.

https://twitter.com/touringcarsnet/s...409329665?s=21

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by Racer65

If it's all about the car why is the other one 26th then? All the cars have their strengths and weaknesses and there was nothing stopping someone else building one years before BMR did. It's not BMR's fault that teams whined after the fact.

The attitude people are showing is really unfair on Sutton. He is head and shoulders the best driver out there IMO.

+1, but maybe for now, as he's still very young, I wouldn't call him THE best, but definitely one of the best.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Racer65

If it's all about the car why is the other one 26th then? All the cars have their strengths and weaknesses and there was nothing stopping someone else building one years before BMR did. It's not BMR's fault that teams whined after the fact.

The attitude people are showing is really unfair on Sutton. He is head and shoulders the best driver out there IMO.

To be honest, I think this misses the point. Right ok - are we really suggesting that the Subaru is actually at the speed of JP, and Sutton is 2 seconds a lap faster than JP? We just got reminded that JP was a double champion and won loads of races, so Sutton must be some sort of driving God then, using JP as a benchmark? Lewis Hamilton better watch out!

Now obviously I'm joking there - but whether you want to argue the Subaru is too good or whether the Subaru is average, using JP as a benchmark is stupid. It just raises other issues if you do that.

Honestly, ignore who is driving it, and ignore what brand the car is. If any car in BTCC can outperform the success ballast, and go from terrible to in the championship hunt in one weekend, then I do think people should be raising eyebrows.

Yes yes, we can talk about "there's been dominance in other series" and list a whole bunch of series that have absolutely no resemblance to BTCC if you want. But unlike any of those series, TOCA has put a lot of work into making sure nobody can dominate by introducing things like success ballast and reverse grids. When any car can come in and completely nullify those efforts, there should be questions on what is going on.

Love Sutton. Even quite like the Surbaru (looks awesome, the way it carries itself is cool and I like that it's an estate). I just don't like that there is only car that's allowed to do this sort of thing. Nothing else consistently generates these sort of results and discussion points. I did used to enjoy having the car in the series, but now as much as I like the car, I don't like what it's doing to the series, because TOCA seems to be completely unable to actually manage it.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by Racer65

If it's all about the car why is the other one 26th then? All the cars have their strengths and weaknesses and there was nothing stopping someone else building one years before BMR did. It's not BMR's fault that teams whined after the fact.

Honda couldn't build, BMW couldn't etc etc cos they have no boxer road engines


the only ones capable would be Porsche...

and now that it became illegal to build such a car tel you something

[Akrapovic]

Porsche races are much better in highlight form when they cut out 10 lap chunks at a time. Couple of good passes in this mornings race.

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Yes yes, we can talk about "there's been dominance in other series" and list a whole bunch of series that have absolutely no resemblance to BTCC if you want. But unlike any of those series, TOCA has put a lot of work into making sure nobody can dominate by introducing things like success ballast and reverse grids. When any car can come in and completely nullify those efforts, there should be questions on what is going on.

If you don't think that a motorsport series should be all about 'the best package (package, not a driver, car, team, whatever) wins, then it's better to watch quiz show instead. I mean, ok, it happens almost everywhere now that the field is better when almost everyone has a chance to win but still with all these regulations (ballast, reversed grid, etc) it's not something strange that out of this comes a team that is able to put it all together in a best way and they win the championship but not by winning 90% of races as in F1. Sutton has 'only' five wins out of 20-something and he's still not a championship leader. Is it really a huge domination?

Also you say that all the series mentioned by me have no resemblance of BTCC. Maybe in part you're right but hey, they're all about racing cars and the best ones win, arent they. And also DTM is almost completely different to Supercars, whereas Supercars is almost completely different to NASCAR but still they all share some similarities. So why BTCC should be excluded from the group of (at least theoretically) major motor racing championships in the world? Because Sutton is winning and everyone is complaining?

[porsche962fan]

why can't just understand that we agree that Sutton is good but he simply has a superior car based on concept which is impossible to reproduce by any other team now ?

F1 sure Mercedes is dominating but it's not like they have access to do something which no other team could do

[HopAlong]

The issues are more the team than car in my opinion, of course the Subaru has a natural advantage but so do the saloons and so do the short wheel base cars. I think if a WSR or who ever ran the car it wouldn't be as far back on certain weekends. And for this massive CoG advantage, which certainly is offset some by the estate sheet metal the car has other disadvantages too. This car has along with S3 the widest fenders, so the car is more draggy than any of the cars that have wider base models, it also has the highest placed rear wing, all more drag. Also why doesn't the Cayman in GT4 and the 911 in GTE have such an issue with BoP or the GT86/BRZ GT300 with GT3 cars and why isn't WRX being killed by the WRX STI?

Why does no one complain about the Toyota Avensis, an old design beating RWD cars on RWD tracks and qualifying high with lots of ballast and has a natural drag advantage and is with no doubt the fastest car on the grid.

If a Subaru wins by 6 seconds its domination by an unfair advantage, a honda can win by 12 seconds and its what a good drive. Then everyone moans about the RWD starting advantage, then ignore the FWD tyre advantage for the first 2-3 laps.

The car isn't controversial its how people love to blow stuff out of proportions that make it so.

Also Plato wasn't spectacular in 2016 so I reckon with in a FWD he'd still be near the front, certainly doing better than Neal but no one seems to knocking Neal when he is 20 odd places behind his teammate.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Matt K

If you don't think that a motorsport series should be all about 'the best package (package, not a driver, car, team, whatever) wins, then it's better to watch quiz show instead. I mean, ok, it happens almost everywhere now that the field is better when almost everyone has a chance to win but still with all these regulations (ballast, reversed grid, etc) it's not something strange that out of this comes a team that is able to put it all together in a best way and they win the championship but not by winning 90% of races as in F1. Sutton has 'only' five wins out of 20-something and he's still not a championship leader. Is it really a huge domination?

Also you say that all the series mentioned by me have no resemblance of BTCC. Maybe in part you're right but hey, they're all about racing cars and the best ones win, arent they. And also DTM is almost completely different to Supercars, whereas Supercars is almost completely different to NASCAR but still they all share some similarities. So why BTCC should be excluded from the group of (at least theoretically) major motor racing championships in the world? Because Sutton is winning and everyone is complaining?

It's amusing you should use the quiz show analogy. BTCC decides reverse grids by getting a special guest to pick a bingo ball out of a giant tub on a TV draw. What could be more TV quiz show than that?

If you honestly take BTCC seriously, then who am I to tell you not? You do you, etc. However, BTCC has worked very hard and carved out a niche for itself where it is certainly not taken seriously by viewers. Every promotion for the series involves accidents and spins, and they dramatise that a lot. They do reverse grids, they weigh down cars, and they don't put any emphasis at all on the purity or seriousness of the series. BTCC does what it does very well - it's an entertainment series. And frankly, watching a single car make a mockery of the regulations put in place by TOCA to stop dominance is not entertaining. You can say "yeah but dominance is part of racing" as if you're comparing it to a 'pure' racing series, but in context that doesn't work. When WEC picks bingo balls out of tubs, then sure. But until then, BTCC became a parody of itself and it's happy with that.

When I want serious racing I'll go watch WEC, IMSA, ELMS, Blancpain, etc. When I watch BTCC I want to be entertained by the madness of it all. There is one car that's managing to completely undo the regulations put in place to make it entertaining.

Again, if you enjoy it and think it's super serious, then cool - you do that. But don't be surprised when not everyone enjoys watching that sort of thing.

[Akrapovic]

Given the circumstances, that was a very classy interview by Jelly.

[tux]

What makes the Subaru so good in the rain? Any time it rains we are reminded that it’s bad news for BMW so why can the Subaru handle it so well?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by tux

What makes the Subaru so good in the rain? Any time it rains we are reminded that it’s bad news for BMW so why can the Subaru handle it so well?

The car is visibly softer setup than the other cars, which I find interesting. I actually think it's quite cool to look at - it's especially noticeable on the formation lap when warming tyres. You can see a fair bit of body roll in it, especially at the front end. I'd hazard a guess that that helps.

[pimmy]

Getting away from Subaru *****ing, the coverage of this event is atrocious. In the last hour we've seen hacked up highlights of one race, when there were three on before the first BTCC race.

Hopefully another action packed race coming up.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by pimmy

Getting away from Subaru *****ing, the coverage of this event is atrocious. In the last hour we've seen hacked up highlights of one race, when there were three on before the first BTCC race.

Hopefully another action packed race coming up.

But we've had plenty of ad breaks! Who doesn't want to see the same set of ads even more?

[porsche962fan]

hope Silverstone has bone dry weekend, really fed up with rain

[pimmy]

Sutton wins again in a red flagged race.

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by pimmy

Sutton wins again in a red flagged race.

Or does he...

[Akrapovic]

Well it clearly just failed the ride height check.

Shame about the red flag. Could've been a nasty one at T1.

[porsche962fan]

if Sutton excluded means Tingram won while Turks 5th

[Robin Marriott]

Looks like Smelt had no brakes by the way he was flashing his lights!

But confused about Sutton too, will have to see how this pans out.

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Shame about the red flag. Could've been a nasty one at T1.

Right decision to stop it. Don't need a pile up!

Must say I'm impressed with the driving today in these conditions. Lots of overtakes and very few cars getting together.

Turkington on pole for R3, Morgan if Sutton is disqualified.

[porsche962fan]

Turks on pole


BUT if Sutton excluded it will Morgan on pole

[Evantra]

Confirmed - Sutton stripped of win.

https://twitter.com/touringcarsnet/s...766660608?s=21

[porsche962fan]

^ this means the title will be pretty much between Tingram or Turks !!