11,500rpm!

Kid Prozac · 27 May 2002, 19:24 (Ref:297812)

woo! am so happy, we finally got our formula student engine running yesterday evening, after months of toil building dynos, awful running, ecu's wiping itself, the thing went upto 11,500rpm! and there was still more coming. okay it wasnt running overly smooth but seeing and hearing (v.loud!) an engine running at that speed on a dyno that youve built is something else! and were only the second year team! im exstatic

Chris Griffin · 27 May 2002, 20:18 (Ref:297872)

What's the config of this lump then KP?

Kid Prozac · 27 May 2002, 20:49 (Ref:297920)

well its pretty much standard (budgetry constraints) the only rules basically are max cc: 610, and a 20mm inlet restrictor, which when you think about it and actually see it is microscopic! still we reckon we can get about 70bhp out of it, the only problem is that at 11.5k it is so loud! and weve got concerns that were not gonna pass the noise test! as far as i know, im the suspension guru, the engine is bog standard apart from an exhaust which one of my mates built and a custom inlet manifold, throttle body, and fuel injection system

Chris Griffin · 27 May 2002, 20:57 (Ref:297933)

How many Cyl? What fuel? Is this gonna be run in a car of some sort?

Kid Prozac · 27 May 2002, 21:00 (Ref:297937)

oh yeah sorry! its a honda cbr 600 engine, and as i said its gonna be run in the back of one of our unis (herts) formula student cars.

see: www.formulastudent.com for details of the competition, but last years final year car was clocked at 100mph! which is scary when you consider it was built by students!

the car weighs approx 200kg so acceleration is very quick, about 4 secs to 60. weve only got a spaceframe but its about as advanced as you can get with a spaceframe, the fianl year car this year is a carbon/honeycomb monocoque and looks awesome!

Chris Griffin · 27 May 2002, 21:25 (Ref:297964)

I must be out of touch! I never realised such a competition existed. Looks like a very well organised set-up. Must be great fun. How come you're the suspension man. Is this the area of specialisation that your heading? I've been racing for a few years now and have had difficulty fully understanding the dynamics surrounding sus' set-ups! The problem really stems from a lack of testing time really. A classic example was last year at Brands Classic Fest' when I had to borrow a set of rear shocks and springs from my dad's car. They were softer than mine and made the front push-on through corners something rotten! Very frustrating!

Jay · 27 May 2002, 21:30 (Ref:297968)

That's not bad Kid Prozac, but wait until the competition before celebrating

.

We have something similar in North America called Formula SAE, which is a competition between about 150 Universities in North America, and a few in the UK too. I'll probably get involved with that next year if I can find the time...lol. Likely fuel injection, as that seems to be where all the computer engineers are required.

Anyway, I'm going to move this to the technical forum where it may get a better reception.

Kid Prozac · 28 May 2002, 22:49 (Ref:298939)

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Griffin
I must be out of touch! I never realised such a competition existed. Looks like a very well organised set-up. Must be great fun. How come you're the suspension man. Is this the area of specialisation that your heading? I've been racing for a few years now and have had difficulty fully understanding the dynamics surrounding sus' set-ups! The problem really stems from a lack of testing time really. A classic example was last year at Brands Classic Fest' when I had to borrow a set of rear shocks and springs from my dad's car. They were softer than mine and made the front push-on through corners something rotten! Very frustrating!

yeah, suspensions my thing. i have redesigned the suspension system to the limits possible, ie without a new chassis, so same pickup points, but brand spanking new uprights which have been getting very high praise (better than final years according to one technician, very chuffed!) new rockers, mounting points, shock absorbers. if you wanna know a bit more abouit suspension, and im not saying im in any way an expert, but have a decent knowledge of the fundamentals, add me to your msn if your on it, am always ready to help people and the more practical experience for me at this stage in my career the better, or send me an email or something.

Kid Prozac · 28 May 2002, 22:51 (Ref:298941)

Quote:

Originally posted by Jay
That's not bad Kid Prozac, but wait until the competition before celebrating .

We have something similar in North America called Formula SAE, which is a competition between about 150 Universities in North America, and a few in the UK too. I'll probably get involved with that next year if I can find the time...lol. Likely fuel injection, as that seems to be where all the computer engineers are required.

Anyway, I'm going to move this to the technical forum where it may get a better reception.

yeah i know! should have perhaps been a bit more careful with my celebrations as the engine was playing up earlier, just the plugs though, so no big problem. Sae rules are identical to formula student, this is just the english version, get loads of americans come over now. we have got the advantage though of having the best uk car from 2 years ago so we are expected to perform well, eeek!

oh, and thanks for moving it

jamesb · 4 Jun 2002, 14:43 (Ref:304486)

11,500? I run a cbr600 in formula honda and I'm shifting at 12,500. Is the restricter really taking 1000rpm off you? wow. I know guys hitting 13,200 from standard engines with a hondasport chip.
I'd be interested in seeing the car if you have any pictures. e-mail them to info@jamesbaker.f9.co.uk please. If you have a website what is the address? Formula student is an interesting, if dubious method of introducing students to motorsport. I have my reservations about them not actually racing week in week out, but it is a great idea and seems to work very well so who am I to disagree.

Good luck Kid prozac, looking forward to seeing the end result.

Dave Brand · 4 Jun 2002, 18:06 (Ref:304648)

Quote:

Originally posted by jamesb
11,500? I know guys hitting 13,200 from standard engines with hondasport chip.

My CBR600FP revs to 13,400, & that's a bog-standard road bike.

Stacy · 4 Jun 2002, 18:55 (Ref:304688)

Quote:

Originally posted by Kid Prozac

yeah, suspensions my thing.

Kid,

How are you on beam axles, macpherson struts and watts linkages......................... ?

Stacy (Provider of Beer)

Stacy · 4 Jun 2002, 19:03 (Ref:304693)

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Griffin
I've been racing for a few years now and have had difficulty fully understanding the dynamics surrounding sus' set-ups!

Hi Chris,

I know what you mean. I've spent months buying and reading almost every suspension related book I can get hold of. To be fair I have learnt a lot from them and have made a lot of progress, but I have a lot more ideas on what can be done. Trouble is I can't help feeling a more knowledgeable person would save me a lot of time in telling me my ideas are rubbish..

Stacy

Kid Prozac · 5 Jun 2002, 19:55 (Ref:305594)

Quote:

Originally posted by stacy

Kid,

How are you on beam axles, macpherson struts and watts linkages......................... ?

Stacy (Provider of Beer)

well, my main knowledge lies in double wishbone type suspension systems, but i have a decent knowledge of those mentioned. id be happy to have ago at answering any questions you may have, send questions to kidprozac@hotmail.com or post on here

Kid Prozac · 5 Jun 2002, 19:59 (Ref:305599)

i know 11,500 rpm doesnt sound much, but the restrictor is the size of a 10p piece, and has to go before the throttle body/ies. ours has been designed so that the throttle body is 20mm diameter, you can just about get your little finger down it! ive been told that the restrictor affects the rpm,s but it gives a hell of an induction roar! also most engines only run to 9000rpm or so so were well pleased. added to which we have twin cans on the back and on full whack in the car it sounds like a hillclimb hart 2.5litre engine, superb! we were just revving it the other day for the fun of it, certainly brings a smile to your facE

jamesb · 5 Jun 2002, 23:40 (Ref:305859)

I know you will already have thought of this, but have you tried incorporating the restrictor into a NACA duct? when in direct airflow you can have a limited amount of forced induction which at higher speeds may give you some of the power back.

Also, is water injection allowed?

Dave Brand · 6 Jun 2002, 08:20 (Ref:306073)

Quote:

Originally posted by Kid Prozac
i know 11,500 rpm doesnt sound much, but the restrictor is the size of a 10p piece,

11,500 rpm with a 20mm restrictor sounds good to me! Are you sure you haven't got any air leaks.........

RWC · 8 Jun 2002, 03:12 (Ref:307882)

LOL air leaks ,now that's creative!!I've wondered about smoothing the flow through restrictor plates myself.It would be well worth looking into the theory of it!!

Sean · 9 Jun 2002, 18:34 (Ref:308720)

Hey KP and Jay, where are you guys from (school) ? You guys are talking about Student SAE formula events. I competed at this year's event in Pontiac Michigan. It was a fun time, but terrible weather. Do you guys compete? And was anyone reading this post at this year's competition?

Kid Prozac · 10 Jun 2002, 20:57 (Ref:310008)

Im from hertfordshire (UK) so we only compete in the uk event, same rules though.

regarding the air leaks, yes that has been suggested many a time!

but as far as we know the judges check for gaskets and the like

jamesb · 21 Jun 2002, 00:08 (Ref:317955)

Have you ever heard the saying
" if you are going to cheat, cheat within the rules"
Investigate a dry ice shelf inside the airbox.
Water injection.
Smoothing the restrictor does work, as you will know from your venturi/restrictor plate examples in thermofluid dynamics class. Cd ,90/.65 repectively. A laminar flow surface (though golfball dimples?) will also help.

In short, losses here are magnified throughout the system.

Also, forget wings, they are not effective at the speeds you guys run, and add uneccessary weight.

Hope even one word of this gives you an idea that will help.

Dave Brand · 21 Jun 2002, 08:58 (Ref:318101)

Quote:

Originally posted by Kid Prozac
regarding the air leaks, yes that has been suggested many a time! but as far as we know the judges check for gaskets and the like

I would assume that the restrictor is supplied by the organisers & that tampering with it in any way is illegal? If I were running the competition I'd give each team a new restrictor on the day of the event, to be fitted under the supervision of a scrutineeer & officially sealed to prevent its replacement.......did somebody say 'set a thief to catch a thief'?

ParkLife · 24 Jun 2002, 14:13 (Ref:320413)

Heh, now isn't that interesting. I've just spent my final year modelling the Honda CBR600 and optimising especially for my university's Formula Student effort. Needless to say the results of our models have proved quite impressive.

The attached picture shows the comparison between the model and the actual engine. A reasonably accurate model I hope you'd agree.

Unfortunately the actual people on the Formula Student teams here do no appear to have much racing spirit in them and weren't exactly too interested in my suggestions.

My final model is pushing 80 KW, or 107 BHP if you prefer. I ran out of time unfortunately and my next step was to focus on optimising the restrictor. Our investigations proved that this is easily the main area for improvement and I was planning on creating a detailed low level model of it.

If your interested, send me a note, John@PowerVR.cjb.net

madmat666 · 24 Oct 2002, 16:12 (Ref:412308)

Quote:

Originally posted by jamesb
Have you ever heard the saying
Investigate a dry ice shelf inside the airbox.
Water injection.

what exactly are these and how would thay help??

avsfan733 · 25 Oct 2002, 01:12 (Ref:412806)

cooling the intake charge... think thermodynamics pressure volume temp