[Rumours] Groundhog Day’s Hamilton vs Masi - P45s at the ready?

[crmalcolm]

The subject of Hamilton's participation in 2022 and Masi's position as RD has been the subject of debate in recent days.
This has cropped up in a number of threads, each of which is in danger of being derailed form the original topic.

Hopefully this thread can enable the discussion around this matter to be held away from those other threads, and allow their separate discussion(s) to continue.

LEWIS HAMILTON TO STAY IN F1 AS MICHAEL MASI SET TO BE SACKED
'After the incident that shook the Formula One world in Abu Dhabi and cost Sir Lewis Hamilton the World Championship, Mercedes and the FIA had reportedly finally reached agreement which will see Mercedes getting some justice despite the fact that they are still unhappy and furious with the events.'


Lewis Hamilton only dropped F1 title appeal 'because Michael Masi said he would leave'
'A 'senior source' has alleged that Lewis Hamilton and Mercedes dropped their appeal against the result of the F1 world title because Michael Masi said he would leave his position as FIA race director.'


Mercedes 'agree FIA deal to sack Michael Masi' to avoid Lewis Hamilton taking sabbatical
'Mercedes decided to drop their appeal with an agreement in place which would see Masi and single-seater technical matters Nikolas Tombazis sacked ahead of the 2022 season.

Mercedes have reportedly denied any such deal was reached and instead want "appropriate action" to be taken by the FIA.'

[billy bleach]

It would seem the Head of Single seater technical is also on Merc hit list Presumably they are still sore about the revised aero rules for 2021...

[S griffin]

Of course Merc are a very competitive team, but at times they need to reign it in. They can't have it all their own way. They can be a bit upset about changes to rules that get rid of their technical advantage, but the rules aren't about them

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Of course Merc are a very competitive team, but at times they need to reign it in. They can't have it all their own way. They can be a bit upset about changes to rules that get rid of their technical advantage, but the rules aren't about them

I realise that however it is undeniable Merc and Aston were screwed by the rule changes due to philosophy of there cars and publicly Toto was cross about it

[Sodemo]

I have long thought that F1 has some underhand goings on, but the whole Abu Dhabi episode and now this, really has an unpleasant air to it all.

[crmalcolm]

Just to remind people of what has been reported regarding Hamilton / Mercedes by the BBC:

16 December 2021 - "Mercedes have decided not to pursue their appeal against the results of the title-deciding Abu Dhabi Grand Prix.
Their move follows a decision by governing body the FIA to conduct a "detailed analysis" of the end of the race and an admission it was "tarnishing" Formula 1's image.
Mercedes said they "welcomed" the move and would "hold the FIA accountable"."

16 December 2021 - "Lewis Hamilton is "disillusioned" and will never get over the events of the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, says Mercedes Formula 1 boss Toto Wolff. [...]"The FIA can't really mark their own homework," Wolff said. "There is a difference between being right and obtaining justice.

"It is going to take a long time for us to digest what has happened on Sunday. I don't think we will ever get over it. That's not possible. And certainly not as a driver."

11 January 2022 - "Lewis Hamilton will not decide whether to return to Formula 1 this season until he sees the results of an inquiry into the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix. [...] New president Mohammed Ben Sulayem has said he has contacted Hamilton since his election five days after the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix.

"I don't think he's 100% ready to respond right now," Ben Sulayem said last week. "We don't blame him. I understand his position."


A month ago, Mercedes told us that they were dropping the appeal on the basis that a full enquiry would be held. Hamilton is understandably expecting to see that enquiry make significant changes. So why should we expect Hamilton to change his stance now? If he just got on with racing, he would face criticism for not sticking to his word and allowing the FIA to continue unchecked.

We have regularly seen drivers (including Hamilton) criticised for being vocal about issues, but not having the courage to see that through with definitive action. In this case, it seems that Hamilton is willing to back up his words if nothing changes.

[chillibowl]

With winter testing nearing, would his leaving be a bigger problem for his team or the sport?

Can admit that despite my thoughts about the way the season ended, if Lewis takes an early leave then maybe as a fan I end up watching less.

at this late stage, no guarantees that a replacement will be better.

In other sports when a ref makes a bad call you get on them in the hopes they will make the next call in your favour. Could this be a tactic to ensure a more favourable relationship with a race control/rd who ‘owes’ Lewis a victory or two?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

A month ago, Mercedes told us that they were dropping the appeal on the basis that a full enquiry would be held. Hamilton is understandably expecting to see that enquiry make significant changes. So why should we expect Hamilton to change his stance now? If he just got on with racing, he would face criticism for not sticking to his word and allowing the FIA to continue unchecked.

We have regularly seen drivers (including Hamilton) criticised for being vocal about issues, but not having the courage to see that through with definitive action. In this case, it seems that Hamilton is willing to back up his words if nothing changes.

I really hate I have been sucked into this discussion. But I have a point and a question.

Question: The "P45" reference has gone over my head. Can someone help me? Frankly I am more interested in that answer than anything.

Point: Is this the hill Lewis has decided it's worth dying on? Something like "FIA must make changes or I quit?" Frankly, I think at some level he may be threating exactly what the FIA (or F1 from a commercial perspective) might want. With no Lewis, that will really shuffle the cards and really add an extra dash of spice going forward. Plus, if he quits now, under these circumstances. I think history would not treat him well (fair or not).

Richard

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Question: The "P45" reference has gone over my head. Can someone help me? Frankly I am more interested in that answer than anything.

Sorry - it's reference to a UK tax form.

P45
You’ll get a P45 from your employer when you stop working for them.

'The term is used in British slang and Irish slang as a metonym for termination of employment; the equivalent slang term in the United States is pink slip.'

[Mike Harte]

Richard, in the UK a P45 is an Inland Revenue document that you receive from your employer when you leave that employment, no matter whether voluntarily or involuntarily. In the UK it's often used to just mean that one has been dismissed.

As I wrote on another thread, so much about how F1 is run and managed is very far from being transparent, and too much is decided behind closed doors and documented in contracts that, we the public, are never going to be privy. F1 tends not to air it's dirty linen in public, so obviously, the FIA and Mercedes came to some agreement about what would happen going into the new season.

I would imagine that Hamilton is aware of the matters discussed in those negotiations, and is holding his powder dry until he sees that the FIA has followed through on it's undertakings. Nothing more to it than that.

[steve_r]

I think (hope) that a lot of the speculation is just journalistic nonsense, and I expect Hamilton to return. But hey - what do I know?

[Richard C]

Thanks for the clarity on the P45. As an American I was thinking it was like "pistols at dawn" and was thinking... What is a P45 pistol???

Originally Posted by steve_r

I think (hope) that a lot of the speculation is just journalistic nonsense, and I expect Hamilton to return. But hey - what do I know?

Frankly I think exiting the last race, he may not have known what he would do. So return or not was maybe a fair question. I do suspect now he is just letting people sweat, but will be back.

Richard

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Thanks for the clarity on the P45. As an American I was thinking it was like "pistols at dawn" and was thinking... What is a P45 pistol???

https://grandpower.eu/products/produ.../civilian/p45/

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Greem

https://grandpower.eu/products/produ.../civilian/p45/

And yes, that was one I thought about. But it was a pretty esoteric pistol to rise to this level of general cultural common knowledge.

I think the American version of a P45 in this context is your "pink slip". Even then, I think that is probably dropping out of the general lexicon these days.

Richard

[Skam85]

It's amazing that without posting anything on social media or saying anything for a month he's still managed to have the whole F1 talking about him. Sir Lewis' marketing team, you have to give it to them.

Ultimately though, if these stories about "I want Masi and co's head on a platter or I take my ball and go home" are true - all I can say is that the sport is bigger than one driver or team.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Ultimately though, if these stories about "I want Masi and co's head on a platter or I take my ball and go home" are true - all I can say is that the sport is bigger than one driver or team.

Beat me to it. F1 can survive without Hamilton..... whether it would be in a better place of course is another question, but it will survive. Mercedes of course have just ditched Formula E and have said in effect all their (motorsport) eggs are in the F1 basket so I dont see them going anywhere.

Having said that all the threats are at this stage conjecture and potentially just media beat ups.

[Oldtony]

Unfortunately F1 has become captive to a combination of Social media noise and the culture of Celebrity.
Yes the F1 is bigger than any individual, and will survive and prosper in spite of the latest dummy spit of any of the drivers. What this sort of press beat-up demonstrates is that we have allowed drivers egos and image become a too dominant factor in how "fans" view a very complex sport.
Somehow all the other contributors to putting the cars on the grid and running the complex development, logistics and event management that comprise a Grand Prix series need to be given more recognition and authority.
The egos in Helmets should think about that a lot more.
Here endeth the rant!

[Alan52]

So either Toto and Lewis get to run the sport because clarifying the rules actually means sacking senior FIA officials or Lewis quits.
Blackmail is never pretty.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Alan52

So either Toto and Lewis get to run the sport because clarifying the rules actually means sacking senior FIA officials or Lewis quits.
Blackmail is never pretty.

Either the threat is real or it's not. I think everyone is looking like this as a game of chicken in which only those two outcomes mentioned above are the only two that can happen. What happens if FIA does something significantly less than what everyone is saying Lewis/Mercedes is asking for which then forces Lewis/Mercedes to either pull the trigger (and looking like sore losers) or saying they will come back (and looking like they capitulated). What if Lewis/Mercedes hasn't even made this demand, but are now riding a wave they may not be able to control. Maybe what is happening behinds the scenes is both groups are working on a face saving exit that saves everyone involved.

Richard

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Either the threat is real or it's not. I think everyone is looking like this as a game of chicken in which only those two outcomes mentioned above are the only two that can happen. What happens if FIA does something significantly less than what everyone is saying Lewis/Mercedes is asking for which then forces Lewis/Mercedes to either pull the trigger (and looking like sore losers) or saying they will come back (and looking like they capitulated). What if Lewis/Mercedes hasn't even made this demand, but are now riding a wave they may not be able to control. Maybe what is happening behinds the scenes is both groups are working on a face saving exit that saves everyone involved.

Richard

I can’t see how face can be saved.If Michael and Nicolas are in their positions round 1 then Mercedes bluff has been called.If they are not FIA has capitulated to Mercedes blackmail.If the ultimatum had never been made public there might be some room for face saving but it is too late for that.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Alan52

So either Toto and Lewis get to run the sport because clarifying the rules actually means sacking senior FIA officials or Lewis quits.
Blackmail is never pretty.

I think the most important word here is in the thread title...'Rumour'

Anything else after that is basically meaningless BS.

Funny how Lewis hasnt said a word since the incident other than to gratiously congratulate Max, and hes the one in the headlines...i guess the media have got to whip up a story and youre all falling for it.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

I think the most important word here is in the thread title...'Rumour'

Anything else after that is basically meaningless BS.

Funny how Lewis hasnt said a word since the incident other than to gratiously congratulate Max, and hes the one in the headlines...i guess the media have got to whip up a story and youre all falling for it.

Masi was in the FIA Org chart in October. He is now no longer in the Org Chart.

However, I don't believe that this is Mercedes getting to run the sport. Even if you take it to the extreme and pretend that Mercedes said "We're not coming back if the sport is being run by someone who disregards the rule book", I genuinely don't think that's an unfair thing. It's a sensible stance from Mercedes both from a sporting and business stand point.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Masi was in the FIA Org chart in October. He is now no longer in the Org Chart.

However, I don't believe that this is Mercedes getting to run the sport. Even if you take it to the extreme and pretend that Mercedes said "We're not coming back if the sport is being run by someone who disregards the rule book", I genuinely don't think that's an unfair thing. It's a sensible stance from Mercedes both from a sporting and business stand point.

Doesnt mean he still wont be Race Director, nor does it mean that Mercedes or Lewis have instigated this. It could be a few things ranging from a new president restructuring, as hes done with a few other posts, masi having his post removed from the fia chart but solely concentrating on race director because he cant do both at the same time or being removed completely because the FIA recognise that he just did a bad job.....or hes resigned himself recognising that fact.


It does make me laugh how people still think Mercedes have a special treatment or too much weight in F1 after a season where rules were implimented that harmed their car design specifically, followed by a decision in the final race that cost them the championship....this follows a few rule changes over the last few years specifically designed to remove an advantage that Mercedes have held like DAS, FRIC, vented rear wheels etc etc etc

But no.....Mercedes are the the favoured ones

[Adam43]

This is great. Everyone is so into this story. We’ve got ultimatums, blackmail, threats. The story writers have you round their fingers. Lap it up everyone, you love it! Maybe it is the location!?

Or someone might be a bit miffed and wondering if it is all worth it (crikey I understand that) and some other people are looking at what they could do better next time (always a good approach).

Or I couldn’t care less.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Adam43

This is great. Everyone is so into this story. We’ve got ultimatums, blackmail, threats. The story writers have you round their fingers. Lap it up everyone, you love it! Maybe it is the location!?

Or someone might be a bit miffed and wondering if it is all worth it (crikey I understand that) and some other people are looking at what they could do better next time (always a good approach).

Or I couldn’t care less.

Past me agrees with you

Originally Posted by Skam85

It's amazing that without posting anything on social media or saying anything for a month he's still managed to have the whole F1 talking about him. Sir Lewis' marketing team, you have to give it to them.