Innovation in F1

[Casper]

The Ferrari innovation thread prompted me to start another rather than drag that off topic. I wonder where F1 design would have gone if Colin Chapman had lived and continued pushing the envelope. I suspect it would be in a different place to what it is now.

[Knowlesy]

Probably not, the designers are restricted by rules more than anything.

This also assumes Colin would still be designing F1 cars if alive which, at the age of 82, I have a slight problem imagining.

[Lotusonpole]

As Knowlsey quite rightly points out if CC was still around, he would have probably given up designing F1 cars ages ago.
But I think Casper has a point, when CC unfortunately died, there was at least another decade to follow in which F1 had much more technical freedom to explore than it does now.

And anything innovative from Chapman during that time may well have influenced F1 in such a way, the current state of affairs may well have a very different shape.

But, as interesting as it may well be, it's all 'what-if'.

Cheers
P

[ECW Dan Selby]

Yeh, I do think about things like this from time to time. What will F1 cars look like 20 years from now?

How could one invention have changed the face of F1?

Selby

[Lotusonpole]

Hi Dan
I was thinking, besides Chapman's wedge shape, side radiators etc, about ground effect. For a while this did change the face of F1, but eventually it was banned (or the rules re-written) so F1 followed a different path.

Even now, I suppose, side radiators are still evident along with the vestiges of ground effect in the shape of difusers.

P

[ECW Dan Selby]

Sorry if that last question came across as genuine - it was more rhetorical

I've kind of confused myself there, I think... I was more asking how much could one invention have changed it, looking back retrospectively.

Selby

[Marbot]

Putting the engine behind the driver was probably the most radical step. But you could do stuff like that back in the day. Not that it hadn't be done before of course.

Lotus ran a gas turbine in one GP in the early seventies and fiddled about with a sequential clutchless gearbox in testing at about the same time.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Are there any other inventions that were tampered with back in the day that we see now?

Selby

[Marbot]

I don't think that F1 has "invented" anything really. It's proved quite a few laws though. Diminishing returns being one of them.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

Are there any other inventions that were tampered with back in the day that we see now?

Selby

WINGS! - Monza 1968

[wnut]

Slick tyres - 1967?

Pneumatic engine valves Renault 1976?

Electronic engine management Williams and TAG I think.

All still with us.

Most of the the innovations that have been banned or stopped are the interesting ones though!

Renault bringing the turbo 1500cc into racing - it was widely acknowledged that a 1500cc turbo could not compete with a 3 litre normally aspirated engine! How wrong they were!

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by wnut

Slick tyres - 1967?

Early fifties, for American drag racing.

Originally Posted by wnut

Pneumatic engine valves Renault 1976?

Yes, they were the first to race them, but pneumatic valves, in one form or another, have been around for ages. They are only of any real use on very high revving engines. The compressor required to operate them only returns more power than it consumes at very high rpm.

Originally Posted by wnut

Electronic engine management Williams and TAG I think.

1979 on the BMW 633 CSi. But used in aviation long before then.

Originally Posted by wnut

Renault bringing the turbo 1500cc into racing - it was widely acknowledged that a 1500cc turbo could not compete with a 3 litre normally aspirated engine! How wrong they were!

Hardly a new innovation in engine technology. Took a while to get them to work well too, by which time.............

[wnut]

The thread title hear is "INNOVATION in F1" not inventions!

I took it as when the technology was intriduced into F1.

Wings were on aeroplanes and birds a while before they were on F1 cars, but anyway!



Thanks for the clarifications Marbot.

[Another Bob]

The rules are that fixed now its hard to imagine cars looking any different now then in 20 years time. Unless they dramatically change the rules in the meantime.

The cars from 20 years ago don't look all that different to the cars of today because of this, and the only reason their are some differences are because of rule changes.

The next area of innovation will probably be in something like heads up display in the drivers helmet instead of rear view mirrors and lights etc on the steering wheel.

The FIA will be made to, due to public perception and marketing pressure to make F1 greener, KERS, turbos, smaller engines, more fuel efficient etc.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Casper

The Ferrari innovation thread prompted me to start another rather than drag that off topic. I wonder where F1 design would have gone if Colin Chapman had lived and continued pushing the envelope. I suspect it would be in a different place to what it is now.

I understand what you're saying. It's not a question of whether he would be designing cars at the age of 82 but about the influence he would have had if he were still alive today, or had lived longer.

His legacy still lives on in F1; the monocoque chassis and then the carbon fibre monocoque chassis, the basis of any F1, or single seater race car. That is impressive.

[Lotusonpole]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

Sorry if that last question came across as genuine - it was more rhetorical

I've kind of confused myself there, I think... I was more asking how much could one invention have changed it, looking back retrospectively.

Selby

Apologies Dan
It's a trait of mine to grab the wrong end of the stick. My excuse...let's say...I thought you are probably too young to remember.


And Marbot

Lotus ran a gas turbine in one GP in the early seventies and fiddled about with a sequential clutchless gearbox in testing at about the same time.

I remember seeing Reine Wisell spin the 56 Turbine coming up Deer's Leap and past the pits at Oulton Park. Scary.

Lotus also tried 4WD with the I think Type 63, but didn't develop it any further.

P

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by wnut

The thread title hear is "INNOVATION in F1" not inventions!

I took it as when the technology was intriduced into F1.

Wings were on aeroplanes and birds a while before they were on F1 cars, but anyway!



Thanks for the clarifications Marbot.

Maybe Formula 1 didn't invent much itself, but the series certainly did further development work.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by wnut

Wings were on aeroplanes and birds a while before they were on F1 cars, but anyway!

Point being that automobile technology in general doesn't rely on F1 for anything. In fact Honda and others have recently said that it took them down the wrong path with regard to what other innovations they should have been concentrating on..

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Point being that automobile technology in general doesn't rely on F1 for anything. In fact Honda and others have recently said that it took them down the wrong path with regard to what other innovations they should have been concentrating on..

Sorry Marbot but I thought the post was only about F1.

"The Ferrari innovation thread prompted me to start another rather than drag that off topic. I wonder where F1 design would have gone if Colin Chapman had lived and continued pushing the envelope. I suspect it would be in a different place to what it is now."

[Lotusonpole]

Another thing Chapman pioneered was the monocoque chassis using the engine and transmission as stressed members of the overall chassis.

On the wings...
The first ones were mounted very high on struts, approximately a metre above the main car to let them work in 'clean air' . The struts proved 'brittle' to say the least, but we still have the wings.
Is there something in high wings that would improve the current overtaking difficulties?

p

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I understand what you're saying. It's not a question of whether he would be designing cars at the age of 82 but about the influence he would have had if he were still alive today, or had lived longer.

His legacy still lives on in F1; the monocoque chassis and then the carbon fibre monocoque chassis, the basis of any F1, or single seater race car. That is impressive.

Couple of things from this thread:

If Colin Chapman was alive today imo he would still be designing F1 cars as it was his passion. He would not be the only 82 year old still employed at his own business!

The first full Carbon fibre monocoques were the work of Gordon Murray while at McLaren I thought.

Wings started off just behind the roll bars and then grew exponntially!

If a pneumatic valve system uses much air or power you are doing something very wrong, it is basically a sealed system that replaces or assists the valve springs.

As far as I know all the current engines run pneumatic valve systems in one form or another.

Lastly the thread I thought related to innovation in F1, any relvance it had to any other endeavour was of no relevance whatsoever.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by wnut

Couple of things from this thread:

If Colin Chapman was alive today imo he would still be designing F1 cars as it was his passion. He would not be the only 82 year old still employed at his own business!

The first full Carbon fibre monocoques were the work of Gordon Murray while at McLaren I thought.

Wings started off just behind the roll bars and then grew exponntially!

If a pneumatic valve system uses much air or power you are doing something very wrong, it is basically a sealed system that replaces or assists the valve springs.

As far as I know all the current engines run pneumatic valve systems in one form or another.

Lastly the thread I thought related to innovation in F1, any relvance it had to any other endeavour was of no relevance whatsoever.

Just to add a little from my memory that may have been missed

Mclaren were the first to use a carbon monocoque but the layout and concept were with Lotus, Mclarens contribution was to use Carbon rather than aluminum and honeycombe or some such.

Those high wings were mounted on the suspension uprights so the downforce was not transmitted through the suspension but straight to the wheels allowing the suspension to remain compliant, great idea long since banned because they tended to fall off.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

The first full Carbon fibre monocoques were the work of Gordon Murray while at McLaren I thought.

It was actually John Barnard, who was behind McLaren's MP4.

As for who was first with the carbon fibre chassis, the twin chassis Lotus 88, was predominantly made of carbon-fibre and debuted at Longbeach in 1981. the McLaren MP4/1, debuted at Argentina in 1981.

The Lotus 88 was subsequently banned and many of its design features including the carbon-fibre monocoque were incorporated into the Lotus 91, which debuted in Brazil 1992.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Sorry Marbot but I thought the post was only about F1.

"The Ferrari innovation thread prompted me to start another rather than drag that off topic. I wonder where F1 design would have gone if Colin Chapman had lived and continued pushing the envelope. I suspect it would be in a different place to what it is now."

Point taken.

TBH, I think that Colin would have had his hands tied to the same degree as everyone else.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It was actually John Barnard, who was behind McLaren's MP4.

As for who was first with the carbon fibre chassis, the twin chassis Lotus 88, was predominantly made of carbon-fibre and debuted at Longbeach in 1981. the McLaren MP4/1, debuted at Argentina in 1981.

The Lotus 88 was subsequently banned and many of its design features including the carbon-fibre monocoque were incorporated into the Lotus 91, which debuted in Brazil 1992.

Thanks mate you're right! Faulty memory John Barnard of course