Circuit layout change proposals

[Taxi645]

From time to time the F1 world descends upon tracks that do not really provide attractive races. Abu Dabhi being the most recent and regularly criticised example. In stead of discussing this in each grand prix thread, where it gets drowned in the race excitement, I propose a separate thread.


A proposed change to the track in my mind needs to fulfil four criteria:


1 It must improve racing (and possibly the flow and variation of the track).

2 It must be possible

3 It must be safe
4 The cost vs. benefit must be positive.

[Akrapovic]

Great idea for a thread!

I'd start with Bahrain, because we just accidentally had a proof of concept. The outer circuit turned this from a purely stamped out Tilkedrome, to a unique event. I'd keep the outer circuit. And I'd resist the urge to resurface it, as bumps add variety, which is what we need.

I'm now for Bahrain staying on the calendar, if Bahrain GP is replaced by Bahrain Outer.

[S griffin]

The thing is you can't guarantee excitement all the time at every circuit, but circuits like Abu Dhabi are just cookie cutters in a concrete jungle, whereas at places like Spa, Monaco or Suzuka, even if the race isn't the best you can enjoy watching the challenge the circuit brings and the atmosphere the crowd brings. That for me is what matters.

[Taxi645]

Yas Marina.




Turn 4: I would probably use the inside corner at turn 4. This provides a longer flowing section and thus also more variation to all the 90 degree corners. Might be dangerous with the pit exit just before, not sure.


Turn 5/6: For me this chicane does not add much. This type of corner combo is already at the end of both long straights.

I would propose a less sharp chicane closer to the next hairpin. This has two advantages:
1 A different shape of chicane to the other two.
2 With the chicane closer to the hairpin, the guy in front gets more of a dilemma; either you take the wide line into hairpin in order to maximize exit speed onto the straight, but risk opening a gap on the inside for someone to dive into. Or you cover the inside more, but risk the guy running behind to take it more wide to increase exit speed onto the straight.

See an example below:

Turn 8/9 and 11/12/13: Open up the chicanes a tiny bit more to enable two cars to continue side by side longer and allowing more effective cut backs which with the current layout are useless. Now the overtake at 11/12/13 especially is final because the corner combo does not allow side by side racing. By opening it up a bit more the duel could extend to corner 14.

I think all the above would fulfil the four criteria, because no major restructuring would be necessary.

[Taxi645]

One more change for Yas Marina:

Turn 14:
Make the the 90 degree left hander a double apex corner. You don't see many double apex corners on most tracks and there sure are plenty 90 degree corners at Yas Marina. Also increasing the speed of corner 14 makes the corner 13 tot 14 section less start-stop and more fluent.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Great idea for a thread!

I'd start with Bahrain, because we just accidentally had a proof of concept. The outer circuit turned this from a purely stamped out Tilkedrome, to a unique event. I'd keep the outer circuit. And I'd resist the urge to resurface it, as bumps add variety, which is what we need.

I'm now for Bahrain staying on the calendar, if Bahrain GP is replaced by Bahrain Outer.

Agree on allowing tracks to be bumpy.

I think many early Tilke tracks try to improve overtaking by creating hard braking zones with sharp corners. His later tracks like COTA have wider more swooping sections. The width of these swooping sections allows pursuing drivers to take alternative lines and stay out of the dirty air more effectively.

With the arrival of the 2022 cars, this slightly offset pursuing of the man in front will become even more effective and therefore I think we need more wider swooping sections rather than sharp stop-and-go ones. This will not only allow the man behind to follow behind more effectively, but also provides much more challenging and flowy circuits to drive and therefore more exciting to watch.



For Bahrain I proposed the following earlier:

With 2022 cars being to follow each other more closely and the field hopefully converging over time, wouldn't it be nice to reinstate the endurance lay-out, yet in a modified fashion?

It was used in 2010 but not really loved, it didn't provide very good racing and also had a lot of start-stop sections without flow. With cars being able to follow each other more closely from 2022 and some minor changes to the track that would give it more flow, I think a fast flowy inner section would be a nice counter balance to the four straights and it's slow corners at the end.


Here is the lay-out:



This is the modified section:



This is a on board from the track from about 1:00:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMsNrkS0eDE


With the current endurance layout you brake for the chicane, than you get a sharp right hander, than pull up and brake again for another sharpish right hander, pass the kink and then again brake for the slow left.

It's just too much pulling up and than braking again. There is no flow and there already plenty of slow corners at the end of the straights.

With this modification the chicane becomes faster, you have to trail brake from the second half of the chicane in to the right hander which is also a bit faster. Then the next right hander and the following knick are much faster and more exiting to drive and avoids the whole start-stop effect of the whole section.


To me more flowy sections through the sand reminds me more of old-school Zandvoort than Tilke desert tracks and with the 2022 cars this could work out quite well.

[Taxi645]

Here's a video how the alternative would feel like for Yas Marina corner 4. 0:40-0:55 for the whole section, alternative starts at 0:46 (I don't rate the other alternatives in the video's much):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUeKIaeCpu0

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

Yas Marina.

That problems with those chicanes is that they are too tight. Two cars can't go side by side as in Interlagos / Istanbul turn 1. Rounder corners would fix that.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

Bahrain

With 2022 cars being to follow each other more closely and the field hopefully converging over time, wouldn't it be nice to reinstate the endurance lay-out, yet in a modified fashion?

I would just remove turns 11-12, and connect 8 with 13 is a simple straight. I agree that turn 9 is too tight.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

I would just remove turns 11-12, and connect 8 with 13 is a simple straight. I agree that turn 9 is too tight.

Then run 13 straight to 16...

[wolfhound]

Ricciardo would also like to see changes to Yas Marina.


https://www.racefans.net/2020/12/15/...nd-up-15-12-3/

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

I would just remove turns 11-12, and connect 8 with 13 is a simple straight. I agree that turn 9 is too tight.

There is already 4 long straights on the track. I reckon some amount of corners is in order. Just give them more flow and less start-stop-start-stop that section has now.

[Sodemo]

Ive had a go at Yas Marina. Basically in my estimation this is one of the worst circuits in the world layout wise.

The changes ive made I think are realistic and wouldnt present too many issues in terms of safety. I think enough run off is present at each modification.

I dont think there is much wrong with the first couple of corners so ive left those alone. The first change is to the braking zone and complex for the chicane and hairpin. Gone are those two and instead a heavy braking zone into a slightly banked open hairpin which then opens up into a curved traction zone for the run down the second straight.

The next modification is to that horrible chicane. I have just completely bypassed it with a straight section. Lined with barriers this shoudlnt present too much of an issue if other tracks can have close wall lined flat out straights like Russia / Baku.

The final modification is to that again horrible low speed off-camber section. A more traditional open hairpin with curved exit zone and small changes of direction on the exit rejoining the main section.

[Sodemo]

Another version. Changed the bottom left section, the key thing for me is a long braking zone into a more open hairpin. The hairpins often employed at modern tracks are flat, with a well defined apex. This gives little opportunity for multiple lines. I much prefer hairpins with a vague apex and banked, gives more chance for better racing. I have also adjusted the exit corners on that other complex to make them flow better, so it goes from slow - medium - fast - fast.

[wolfhound]

From what I have seen that bottom left corner is actually negative camber making going around the outside impossible as can be seen from most races there. I like your idea for the first hairpin.

[S griffin]

The question is whether you can polish this particular t***. Part of the problem for me is it one of the flattest circuits you can imagine, so even with slight modifications it would still be too sterile. I don’t mind circuits with different character, but the problem is if you have circuits with no character in the first place!

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Another version. Changed the bottom left section, the key thing for me is a long braking zone into a more open hairpin. The hairpins often employed at modern tracks are flat, with a well defined apex. This gives little opportunity for multiple lines. I much prefer hairpins with a vague apex and banked, gives more chance for better racing. I have also adjusted the exit corners on that other complex to make them flow better, so it goes from slow - medium - fast - fast.

I like your proposals apart from making it one long straight. For me it would be more boring. I don't mind that there is a chicane in the middle. It's just that the shape of the chicane doesn't really help prolonging the fight throughout the chicane onto the next straight.

I also like the look of your bottom left section. Flows nicely into the marina section.

Bottom right works well as well I reckon. In your version it is indeed better not to use the inside alternative of corner 4 to allow the follower to get closer behind or next to the car in front before braking into the hairpin. The guy in front then gets the same dilemma as in my proposal do I cover the inside but compromise exit speed or do I go outside risk a late move to the inside. I would extend it a bit more to the right though. Not as far as the current hairpin for safety reasons, but closer to the right gives the stands a closer looks and prolongs the straights before and after a tiny bit to give the car behind a bit more time to get close enough.

The current chicane does not work. It lines up the cars behind each other and is then far enough away for the hairpin to let the guy in front safely choose the wide entry for best exit speed.

In my variant the closer chicane means that the car in front has the use more of it's tyres lateral grip to get back to an outside entry of the hairpin, compromising traction. This lack of traction together with the fact that the line out of the chicane directly towards the inside of the hairpin is also the shortest, gives the guy behind a chance to launch his car into the inside of the hairpin. I do think it should be a bit tighter than I drew it to slow the cars down more for safety and to give the car behind more chance to launch to the inside more.

So I reckon both variants would work better than the current one. The current chicane there, with it's shape and location, actually hinders overtaking more than anything else.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by S griffin

The question is whether you can polish this particular t***. Part of the problem for me is it one of the flattest circuits you can imagine, so even with slight modifications it would still be too sterile. I don’t mind circuits with different character, but the problem is if you have circuits with no character in the first place!

I don't think you can give it much more character, but now it's lacks a bit of character and does not provide good racing. At least the latter part can be fixed.


If at least it becomes a good track to race on and combine it with the marina flair some actually do quite like, I reckon it wouldn't be that bad.

[S griffin]

I think another problem with the circuit is there's no flow to it. Bahrain and Shanghai for example, aren't the greatest tracks, but they do seem to flow better and that's what makes the circuits have a bit more interesting than they would be better otherwise

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Part of the problem for me is it one of the flattest circuits you can imagine, so even with slight modifications it would still be too sterile. I don’t mind circuits with different character, but the problem is if you have circuits with no character in the first place!

What would you propose to add 'character' to a track?
IIRC, Silverstone is quite flat but is rarely criticised for being so. Shanghai, Singapore, Canada, Hockenheim, Mexico, Albert Park and Sochi are all flatter than Yas Marina.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/features/2016/10/highs-and-lows---which-f1-track-has-the-most-elevation-changes-.html

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I think another problem with the circuit is there's no flow to it. Bahrain and Shanghai for example, aren't the greatest tracks, but they do seem to flow better and that's what makes the circuits have a bit more interesting than they would be better otherwise

Yes, I do hope the 2022 regulations with cars being able to better to follow will slowly change views on what makes a good track. Narrow flow tracks now are difficult because you loose much distance and over a stint tyre performance because of the dirty air.


Hopefully from 2022 staying closer or the curvy parts of the track will open up lot's more subtle ways to initiate an overtake in stead of the blunt instrument that is DRS. They should've done it in 2018, but at least we do get it in 2022.

[S griffin]

Yes, that’s what F1 should be about. Fast flowing circuits, not blooming stop start circuits. If we had cars that could follow each other to begin with we would have had no need to change circuits, even if some like the Hungaroring have been improved.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Yes, that’s what F1 should be about. Fast flowing circuits, not blooming stop start circuits. If we had cars that could follow each other to begin with we would have had no need to change circuits, even if some like the Hungaroring have been improved.

Echoed by Sainz at the bottom of the article:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/camber-boring-abu-dhabi-ocon/4929649/?ic_source=home-page-widget&ic_medium=widget&ic_campaign=widget-1

Of course it's better to first wait and see what the 2022 cars will bring to the table before going overboard and committing to the really big changes.

[S griffin]

Both Ocon and Sainz are in favour of more cambered corners. I have to agree with them. Not only can it make the racing better, but it also is more challenging for the drivers too

[wnut]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Both Ocon and Sainz are in favour of more cambered corners. I have to agree with them. Not only can it make the racing better, but it also is more challenging for the drivers too

They need more off cambered corners too, especially leading onto a straight.
There is a huge penalty all the way down the straight if you get the corner even slightly wrong.

On reflection, wake turbulence would mean nothing ever got to overtake the car in front of it. So dump this idea.