[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[S griffin]

Let’s just hope the new regulations introduced have learned from previous mistakes

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Mal

That is correct to a point - but the main reason things were to be slowed was if I recall correctly when Aston Martin wanted to join with a road car based project they insisted that the minimum weight was increased. This was before convegence was a thing as the ACO at that point wanted to go it alone.

What that guy said, extra weight meant extra power and screwed Jim's first planned engine. Although the new one isn't bad having an Alfa badge back would have been cooler.

Originally Posted by Mike E

If only someone had written this all down while it was happening...

What, you mean the stream of (semi)consciousness that is Tenths doesn't count as a written record??

[Sodemo]

I don't understand the ACO's obsession with this 3:30 laptime at Lemans. Why not just allow the hypercar and LMDh cars to have another 30-50bhp over the LMP2 cars and have done with it. Why the need to slow down LMP2?

[FIRE]

Because they don't want faster cars?

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I don't understand the ACO's obsession with this 3:30 laptime at Lemans. Why not just allow the hypercar and LMDh cars to have another 30-50bhp over the LMP2 cars and have done with it. Why the need to slow down LMP2?

Because is a "theorical" delta that should give a certain stability about
future sustainability and performance wise. ACO 3:30 is a way to try to prevent manufacturers getting 2-3s faster a year (or even 5-6s as happened in 2014 to 2015). It's basically a way to prevent manufacturers spending crazy budget a year that usually leads to withdraw from the competition once expenses get unsustainable as recent history tells us.

[Japanese Samurai]

Sorry for off topic.
However, Toyota had used Super Taikyu race for racing hybrid system development before.
Is the era of hydrogen engine coming now?

Toyota Developing Hydrogen Engine Technologies Through Motorsports
https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/co.../35209996.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0yM5RlD7Zo

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by canaglia

Because is a "theorical" delta that should give a certain stability about
future sustainability and performance wise. ACO 3:30 is a way to try to prevent manufacturers getting 2-3s faster a year (or even 5-6s as happened in 2014 to 2015). It's basically a way to prevent manufacturers spending crazy budget a year that usually leads to withdraw from the competition once expenses get unsustainable as recent history tells us.

Totally understandable. But surely all that "sustainability" is going to be achieved through BOP anyway? So why not just BOP them at 3:25 or 3:20? How much extra horsepower would it take to knock off 5 seconds, 50bhp?

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Totally understandable. But surely all that "sustainability" is going to be achieved through BOP anyway? So why not just BOP them at 3:25 or 3:20? How much extra horsepower would it take to knock off 5 seconds, 50bhp?

To keep everythink sustainable, after homologation each LMH will have frozen specs up to 2024 (or 2025? can't remember exactly now). So none will be able to update their cars during the years or bring a basically fresh new car as porsche did in 2015 and 2017. Bop will be likely used to keep everyone in the same performance window.
Is hard speculate a LM timelap, if LMH will reveal to be slightly faster than 2017-2020 lmp2, is possible to expect a best absolute time in 3.24-3.25 maybe, with a 1 or 2s improvement by 2022 because of a better overall set-up and tires usage know how.

[Adam43]

If the lap time isn’t 3:24.7 I will be very angry and it will just show the ACO has got it all wrong. It’s a joke.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Adam43

If the lap time isn’t 3:24.7 I will be very angry and it will just show the ACO has got it all wrong. It’s a joke.

Consider that crazy 3.14-3.16 were achieved by toyota and SMP/rebellion in recent editions mainly because those cars could run flaout through porsche sector, considering the extra weight and the huge downforce loss, LMH will be far from reaching that insane speed in those turns again

[Gingers4Justice]

While we may lose a chunk of speed and lose the 'wow' factor of those LMP1 spaceships look like they are on rails through the final sector, we will see cars squirm a lot more. It was nice to see the GR 10's rear end fly about through Paul Ricard. As with any major rule change, you lose something, you gain something.

[TF110]

Im not worried about 3:30 or whatever timed lap but more about the classes being too close. That doesnt just hurt the racing between classes, imo it brings about the question of having different classes in the first place. Lmp2 just as fast as 'hypercar'. Then they slow p2 again and GTE is just as fast as p2. Its a problem theyre creating they just fixed a few years ago.

[Adam43]

I’ve no problem with overlap in the classes. It’s endurance racing and I’m happy for them to be mixed up, often has been the case.

Of course, the argument to keep the classes separate is to keep the fighting within the class and not have others getting in the way of the battle. Doesn’t bother me too much either way I suppose.

I hope the ACO don’t mess too much and allow the gaps between classes to close.

[joeb]

EI had a mention of the Hydrogen Proto class in their test day notes today:

https://www.endurance-info.com/auto/...eves-du-samedi

- A category reserved for electric-hydrogen propulsion prototypes must still see the light of day at the 2024 24 Hours of Le Mans, that is to say in three years. Red Bull and ORECA continue to work on the chassis that will equip the prototypes.

[chernaudi]

And only 2 seconds off what the fastest LMH cars can do when the LMP2 has a pro driver in it. It could be like 2017 again where it's not inconceivable that a LMP2 can win with some luck on their side.


IMO, that could discredit the LMH class, but the ACO made their bed with that, and now they have to lay in it.

[Aysedasi]

I don't see it as a discredit as such, perhaps a slight embarrassment if it happens. This is the first year of Hypercars and the supposedly big players (in addition to Toyota) are yet to arrive.

[Adam43]

Yes, it is fine. In fact I’ll go as far as to say it is good.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Yes, it is fine. In fact I’ll go as far as to say it is good.

Good for the show maybe, but imo not good for the future manufacturers looking to enter with their money towards a hypercar program. I think it's sad that they have to do this extra work and investment to barely be faster than a 'cheap' lmp2. That might make for more complaining and that's something that I don't want to see more of.

[Adam43]

There certainly will be more complaining, we’ve seen it before with LMP rules. See here.

[Mike E]

The incoming manufacturers will have been reassured that the next generation of LMP2s will weigh 80kg (or whatever) more to bring them up to Hypercar base weight.
No idea of next gen engine spec. A further detuned Gibson V8 to keep it simple? A smaller V6, maybe the Mecachrome F3/F2 engine?
Next gen LMP2 will be slow enough. Sure, a bit awkward for the next couple of years but that just keeps the top class on its toes.

It is a shame that the cars have got so heavy though. Not a great message from an efficiency or sustainability point of view. But, ironically, they probably need to be heavy to be slow enough for the hydrogen cars to keep up.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Mike E

The incoming manufacturers will have been reassured that the next generation of LMP2s will weigh 80kg (or whatever) more to bring them up to Hypercar base weight.
No idea of next gen engine spec. A further detuned Gibson V8 to keep it simple? A smaller V6, maybe the Mecachrome F3/F2 engine?
Next gen LMP2 will be slow enough. Sure, a bit awkward for the next couple of years but that just keeps the top class on its toes.

It is a shame that the cars have got so heavy though. Not a great message from an efficiency or sustainability point of view. But, ironically, they probably need to be heavy to be slow enough for the hydrogen cars to keep up.

since lmp2 isn't about fuel efficiency or else, I hope they would stick with gibson v8 which revealed to be a cheap enough an extremely reliable engine. Anyway considring lmdh lmp2 based chassis will have similiar (if not same) lenght and wheelbase size of LMH, is legit to expect a min.weight >1030kg for next gen lmp2 as well.

PS. mecachrome f2 engine is crap.

None else noticed that when ACO proposes big regs changes, it actually anticipates a world catastrophe?

2008 lmp evo -> global recession
2019 LMH finalized specs -> covid 19

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by canaglia

PS. mecachrome f2 engine is crap.

As Ginetta discovered. A shame, it sounded beautiful in turbo form.
https://youtu.be/5ms7Vur_wns

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by canaglia

None else noticed that when ACO proposes big regs changes, it actually anticipates a world catastrophe?

Let's hope they don't come up with any other big changes any time soon then!

[deggis]

Originally Posted by canaglia

None else noticed that when ACO proposes big regs changes, it actually anticipates a world catastrophe?

2008 lmp evo -> global recession

Was it ever that advanced as a proposal.. all anyone remembers is that Corvette DP-before-DP 3D render and nobody else besides GM seemed to be interested.

I think "any time ACO proposes road car looks based regs" would be more correct.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by TF110

Good for the show maybe, but imo not good for the future manufacturers looking to enter with their money towards a hypercar program. I think it's sad that they have to do this extra work and investment to barely be faster than a 'cheap' lmp2. That might make for more complaining and that's something that I don't want to see more of.

The comparison with LMP2 is not really fair. If you tweak the rules you can make a faster car than LMP1-H for even less money than LMP2. But if you allow unlimited constructor competition within those same rules budgets may escalate from sub-LMP2 to sub-F1 levels. Ultimately the pace is dictated by the rules. We're way past the ultimate speeds era. Cars go and look exactly like the rules say they should. Whereas a spec class with a cost cap is naturally cheaper than one with any kind of design freedom.