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Old 17 Sep 2008, 21:01 (Ref:2292802)   #201
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Originally Posted by TRuss
I know. That's why I said it's great for a race car but would not make sense to develop such a technology on the race track for a road car.
Hmm. well the basic idea of capturing energy from braking would work very well in city cars, as much of the time it's acceleration, braking, and standing still with the engine running!, a hybrid with KERS, could be very helpful!
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Old 17 Sep 2008, 21:51 (Ref:2292850)   #202
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Originally Posted by TRuss
That's why I said it's great for a race car but would not make sense to develop such a technology on the race track for a road car.
I can imagine that flywheel hybrids suffer from the same problem. If you stop for a traffic light, the flywheel might have stopped spinning when you want to start your car again a few minutes later
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Old 17 Sep 2008, 22:06 (Ref:2292860)   #203
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I am confused. All I was saying was that a hybrid using capacitors instead of batteries would not be suitable for even driving on city streets. Therefore it would be a waste of money and effort to develop this technology in sports car racing. Eventhough Toyota has already done this one year ago. Which I only mentioned to show another way of doing things.
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Old 18 Sep 2008, 00:12 (Ref:2292936)   #204
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I'm thinking (or hoping) the way the PDF says "use of the present generation P2 engines in P1" - is little simplified. Again, hopefully.

For sure needs some altering, since in present displacement rules diesels are basicly ruled out in P2. Favouring turbocharging (also petrol) could make sense.

Since ACO is thinking quiet race cars are spectacular, killing the sound variety and going for 3.4L V8 formula is probably not a problem for them.

-edit-

Last edited by deggis; 18 Sep 2008 at 00:18.
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Old 18 Sep 2008, 04:28 (Ref:2292998)   #205
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While I don't like the increased spec-ing of the engines anymore than you do, I will point out that I find the Porsche and Acura V8s sound dramatically different in person.
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Old 18 Sep 2008, 07:59 (Ref:2293058)   #206
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Originally Posted by deggis
For sure needs some altering, since in present displacement rules diesels are basicly ruled out in P2. Favouring turbocharging (also petrol) could make sense.
At the moment the rules allow a 4.4 liter V8 turbodiesel. That is a displacement reduction of 20% over the current LMP1 rules. 650 bhp - 20% = 520 bhp. That seems enough as current LMP2 engines are supposed to produce 500 bhp.
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Old 18 Sep 2008, 10:42 (Ref:2293127)   #207
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But it's the production engine.
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Old 18 Sep 2008, 18:56 (Ref:2293319)   #208
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Originally Posted by gwyllion
At the moment the rules allow a 4.4 liter V8 turbodiesel. That is a displacement reduction of 20% over the current LMP1 rules. 650 bhp - 20% = 520 bhp. That seems enough as current LMP2 engines are supposed to produce 500 bhp.
Porsche and Acura are meant to be back upto 550bhp with current restrictors.

Some more info and discussion here, including news/rumours on Toyota's P1 and how the manufactuers are now pushing the agenda.

http://www.sportscarpros.com/cottonb...ry/default.htm

Last edited by JAG; 18 Sep 2008 at 19:01.
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Old 18 Sep 2008, 22:35 (Ref:2293456)   #209
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Originally Posted by JAG
Some more info and discussion here, including news/rumours on Toyota's P1 and how the manufactuers are now pushing the agenda.

http://www.sportscarpros.com/cottonb...ry/default.htm
Andrew Cotton suggests that Audi could still use the Audi R10 next year:
Quote:
The LMP cars will have smaller rear wings (leading Audi to consider a whole new rear end for the R10 TDI in addition to producing a new car for next year, oh, and winning the DTM title again), and all cars will need to have Gurney flaps.
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Old 18 Sep 2008, 23:45 (Ref:2293480)   #210
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Interesting comments from Porsche in that article.

Also that article raised interesting question that ACO needed to decided whether to reduce speed of the cars or to butcher La Sarthe even more (that will probably happen eventually and gradually in the future anyway).

Since when exactly this "3 m 30 s" safe zone has been in use? Sometimes I think it is actually quite naive to look at that all the time and basically make all the decisions based on that. I mean how about all the other tracks and lap times? And in the end endurance racing is not always about the fastest laps. Especially naive (or not, since it's probably intentional) is to not count track changes (e.g. Tertre) to the "target time".

Last edited by deggis; 18 Sep 2008 at 23:48.
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Old 19 Sep 2008, 00:05 (Ref:2293485)   #211
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Originally Posted by deggis
Interesting comments from Porsche in that article.

Also that article raised interesting question that ACO needed to decided whether to reduce speed of the cars or to butcher La Sarthe even more (that will probably happen eventually and gradually in the future anyway).

Since when exactly this "3 m 30 s" safe zone has been in use? Sometimes I think it is actually quite naive to look at that all the time and basically make all the decisions based on that. I mean how about all the other tracks and lap times? And in the end endurance racing is not always about the fastest laps. Especially naive (or not, since it's probably intentional) is to not count track changes (e.g. Tertre) to the "target time".
There have been several iterations of target times at La Sarthe over the last few years, of which 3:30 is the latest. There have been target times for lesser classes too, not just the overall pace. A lot of it is safety-related, I believe. While I agree that the laptime is not necessarily reflective of performance at all points around the track, and thus not always a good judge of risk, there does need to be some eye towards not having cars be too fast for the track. I'm just not sure I agree with the way the ACO goes about it.

Your comment about other tracks implies that the ACO really cares about other races beyond Le Mans. While this is probably becoming more the case as the LMS comes of age, their chief focus is La Sarthe. The ALMS has enough bespoke rules through IMSA that there is little reason for the ACO to attempt to regulate the performance of cars in North America too tightly.

Regarding the fact that endurance racing is not always about the fastest laptimes, you're right. However, races are becoming more and more sprint-based, and because nobody is going for a championship at Le Mans, this is even more the case at that particular race. Furthermore, while endurance racing may not be about ultimate laptimes, safety is more closely related to them, and this is some of the motivation, I'm sure.
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Old 19 Sep 2008, 00:33 (Ref:2293494)   #212
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Originally Posted by cmk
There have been several iterations of target times at La Sarthe over the last few years, of which 3:30 is the latest. There have been target times for lesser classes too, not just the overall pace. A lot of it is safety-related, I believe. While I agree that the laptime is not necessarily reflective of performance at all points around the track, and thus not always a good judge of risk, there does need to be some eye towards not having cars be too fast for the track. I'm just not sure I agree with the way the ACO goes about it.
In some ways average speeds are even more thruthful.

Thank god ACO wasn't concerned about maximum speeds... since they officially published the 358 km/h ghost time for Dome... (which was wrong because of speed trap malfunction or something as proved in the threads here).

Quote:
Your comment about other tracks implies that the ACO really cares about other races beyond Le Mans. While this is probably becoming more the case as the LMS comes of age, their chief focus is La Sarthe.
True.
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Old 19 Sep 2008, 01:32 (Ref:2293513)   #213
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About rear wing changes:

End plates are not affected?

After seeing the first pics of new '09 spec rear wing for F1 which looks absolutely horrendously out of proportion...

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s..._mg_5300-4.jpg

...new wings on LMPs might have a bit similar effect to looks. I mean take a look at some picture of LMP and imagine 20 cm cut from each side. With smaller endplates might actually look more aggressive.

I'm tempted to do a photoshop mockup.

Last edited by deggis; 19 Sep 2008 at 01:41.
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Old 19 Sep 2008, 04:21 (Ref:2293546)   #214
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Yikes, that is about the stupidist-looking car I've seen in years. I already struggle to make myself watch F1 when there's no water on track. I think having to watch these things circulate will call into question my ability to hold down my breakfast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deggis
In some ways average speeds are even more thruthful
True, but in others they are totally irrelevant. When a car goes off track at a given location, the only relevant fact is how fast it's traveling when it leaves the track/encounters something hard.
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Old 19 Sep 2008, 06:43 (Ref:2293567)   #215
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...new wings on LMPs might have a bit similar effect to looks. I mean take a look at some picture of LMP and imagine 20 cm cut from each side. With smaller endplates might actually look more aggressive.
This is what a 180 cm rear wing looked like on the Audi R8:


Remove another 10 cm at each side.
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Old 19 Sep 2008, 07:01 (Ref:2293572)   #216
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Quick mock-up...



Can't say I prefer the narrow wings, but at least it wont look as bad as next year's F1 cars
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Old 19 Sep 2008, 08:12 (Ref:2293594)   #217
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After seeing the first pics of new '09 spec rear wing for F1 which looks absolutely horrendously out of proportion...

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s..._mg_5300-4.jpg
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Old 19 Sep 2008, 14:26 (Ref:2293758)   #218
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Originally Posted by deggis
Interesting comments from Porsche in that article.

Also that article raised interesting question that ACO needed to decided whether to reduce speed of the cars or to butcher La Sarthe even more (that will probably happen eventually and gradually in the future anyway).

Since when exactly this "3 m 30 s" safe zone has been in use? Sometimes I think it is actually quite naive to look at that all the time and basically make all the decisions based on that. I mean how about all the other tracks and lap times? And in the end endurance racing is not always about the fastest laps. Especially naive (or not, since it's probably intentional) is to not count track changes (e.g. Tertre) to the "target time".
Thats the thing though, 3.30 is just a guide, afterall the diesels ran 3.26 in both qualifying, and more relevantly, the race in 2007, their 'punishment', a 25kg weight break.

Petrol pace is manageable, but the diesels were in a different league so drastic action was needed. Even so, I wouldn't be suprised if the announced reg changes only knock 1 to 1.5 seconds off the P1 diesel lap times at regular circuits, and bring them back to 2007 pace at Le Mans.
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Old 19 Sep 2008, 14:32 (Ref:2293760)   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deggis
About rear wing changes:

End plates are not affected?

After seeing the first pics of new '09 spec rear wing for F1 which looks absolutely horrendously out of proportion...

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s..._mg_5300-4.jpg

...new wings on LMPs might have a bit similar effect to looks. I mean take a look at some picture of LMP and imagine 20 cm cut from each side. With smaller endplates might actually look more aggressive.

I'm tempted to do a photoshop mockup.
Ditch the large endplates and raised nose, and it would look similar to a Brabham BMW, which is no bad thing.
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Old 19 Sep 2008, 14:50 (Ref:2293766)   #220
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Whit that small rear wing, some sponsors is getting problems with there names (on the F1)
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Old 19 Sep 2008, 21:17 (Ref:2293932)   #221
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That wing doesn't look as foolish as those tires. Remember how strange the F1 cars looked with the change to narrow chassis and grooved tires. If we could get used to that we can used to just about anything. There have been rear wings in F1's past that could fit within the rear tires. And the proposed rear wings for protos really is not that big of deal at all in terms of aesthetics.
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Old 20 Sep 2008, 10:05 (Ref:2294116)   #222
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So LMP2 will use more or less Grand AM DP engines. Hope the ACO doesnt adopt the Chassis one day ...
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Old 20 Sep 2008, 10:39 (Ref:2294130)   #223
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Old 22 Sep 2008, 11:32 (Ref:2295140)   #224
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But that's the strange thing-why would the ACO allow GT2 engines-which are often bigger than LMP2 engines in displacement, and thus have lots more torque even if they make the same power-be used in LMP2 cars if their intent is to distance LMP1 and LMP2, especially if LMP1 will use LMP2 engines without a weight reduction from 900kgs.

Maybe they think that KERS will make the difference, but I don't see how that would be, especially if KERS is also legal in LMP2.
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Old 22 Sep 2008, 12:00 (Ref:2295166)   #225
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Originally Posted by chernaudi
But that's the strange thing-why would the ACO allow GT2 engines-which are often bigger than LMP2 engines in displacement, and thus have lots more torque even if they make the same power-be used in LMP2 cars if their intent is to distance LMP1 and LMP2,
Hopefully to keep costs lower by using a so called 'production' engine in P2 cars
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