[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[The Real DMN]

Porsche would have a much bigger budget. Its not like for like.

[MitchZ06]

But VAG wouldn't let one brand race another....we'll either get Audi with diesels or Porsche with petrols but not both.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

But VAG wouldn't let one brand race another....we'll either get Audi with diesels or Porsche with petrols but not both.

Wasnt tere an article about Porsche saying there would be absolutely no issue racing against Audi........Ill try to find the link but the issue you propose isn't an issue.


quite frankly porsche racing against audi is a huge marketing boost. If porsche and Audi are battling for the lead at the LM24 all the talk will be avout porsche and Audi. Quite an effective marketing strategy. Drown out the competition. I porsche goes 1-2-3 and Audi goes 4-5-6 at Lemans no one even mentions Peugeot who finished 7-8-9. Drown out the competition.

[Audi Racer]

Well if toyota joins. Are they not a large manufacturer promoting Petrol engines...At the rate of the performance balancing that were getting i wouldn't be surprise if toyota comes in and takes serious advantage of the rules....If anything their forray with the underpowered super GT engine is to get the ACO to give petrols more power. then they'll swoop in and fight for the win.


When they build the proper engine it'll beat the diesels...sneaky from toyota if you ask me...


We have not had a proper petrol racing engine in a very very very long long time. The Judd engine is 7 years old. The Acura engine in the Acura P1 was not designed to be powerful, it was designed to be light. The mazda engine isn;t a P1 engine. The HPD engine in the back of highcrofts P1 from Sebring was an LMP2 engine. No where near the torque that a proper petrol engine of these times can generate.


In my opinion there is a big market for a new petrol engine that could and will compete with the diesels. Every petrol engine in LMP1 is atleast 5 years old...The diesel engines are brand new.

in addition a Normally Aspirated engine is not going to make anywhere near the torque a turbocharged petrol is capable of.

Turbocharged Petrol is the way to go in P1 if you want to fight the diesels. Porsche is capable, Toyota is capable, Nissan is Capable, Renault is Capable(the french have a thing for turbocharged engines).

The toyota engine in the rebellion is a non purpose built anomally that had to be detuned for endurance racing...

There are no current petrol engines let alone turbocharged.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

But VAG wouldn't let one brand race another....we'll either get Audi with diesels or Porsche with petrols but not both.

Found it

Mueller admitted that a Le Mans project is far more likely than F1: "We would not necessarily have to line up against Audi, but we would do it if we need to and it would mean there are two of the [VW] group's brands fighting in the races. The likelihood that the group wins would therefore obviously be increased."
He urged all the VW brands to get together to "agree on a motorsport strategy for the coming years".

-http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/38588.html

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by arakis

I have to disagree with this, I am pretty sure if Porsche came in with a petrol engine it would have been verry close to deisels

Thanks for the vote of confidence Arakis, but the truth is that under the current rules, no petrol engine would get close enough. Porsche have clearly stated in the past, that they did the math, and the result was simply not attractive.
This is also one of the main reasons behind their "obsession" with their hybrid program.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Thanks for the vote of confidence Arakis, but the truth is that under the current rules, no petrol engine would get close enough. Porsche have clearly stated in the past, that they did the math, and the result was simply not attractive.
This is also one of the main reasons behind their "obsession" with their hybrid program.

the truth?

[MitchZ06]

Yes thats the truth....a petrol engine simply doesn't have the outright torque of a diesel and as such will never be as fast down the Mulsanne with the current regulations.

Its actually poor marketing having Porsche compete with Audi at Le Mans. Outside the racing community the casual observer doesn't know Volkswagen owns Audi and Porsche so if one or the other wins at Le Mans and they use that as marketing people will go off to buy a car from the winner because who wants a car from a company that loses?

[arakis]

and since R8 and 911 are in direct competiton for buyers, it would not bode well for porsches sales to lose to AUDI.

Allthough if you look at the times, best Lmp1 gas ccar was only 3-4s of pace, I am preaty sure porsche could make that time easily with chassis and Aero work alone. and since petrols now have the fueling addvantige, they could have a real shot at it. Although diesels would still stay fastest on outright pace. because if the higher displacement + turbo addvantige diesels get. Now imagine if they alow porsche to built 3.7l turbo petrol with the same restrictors as Audi and Peugeuts get, now that would be a lap record breaker

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Yes thats the truth....a petrol engine simply doesn't have the outright torque of a diesel and as such will never be as fast down the Mulsanne with the current regulations.

Its actually poor marketing having Porsche compete with Audi at Le Mans. Outside the racing community the casual observer doesn't know Volkswagen owns Audi and Porsche so if one or the other wins at Le Mans and they use that as marketing people will go off to buy a car from the winner because who wants a car from a company that loses?

The Casual Observer does not watch Lemans...You have to know Lemans and therefore motorsport to have any interest in watching a race that last 24 hours. The casual observer watches an indy car race or a nascar race or a dtm race. It takes a different kind of person to watch the N24 and LM 24.... Also so you think that if audi beats porsche they are going to go on some kind of a "We beat Porsche marketing campaign"??Of course not. They'll do a Audi and Porsche finish 1-2 at the 24 hours of Lemans.

when Peugeot beat Audi at Lemans in 09 did you actually think that the anyone thought a peugeot could beat an Audi R8....

In addition as Mr. Mueller said. A win is a Win for Volkswagen group. Either he is right or you are right. Ill stick with the former.

[Audi Racer]

?? The pescarolo 6 years old. The Lola is 6 years old. those designs are ancient. this isn;t a matter of the balancing is wrong. Those cars are not capapable of competing with the Audi and Peugeot because they are ancient. There is a huge tech gap.

As arakis stated if Porsche built a proper P1 car of this era they owuld be able to compete with Audi and Peugeot...Despite what you all are saying about torque etc...Porsche is a better engine manufacturer than Judd.....and Zytek....The toyota in the back of the rebellion was detuned to used for endurance. What your seeing now is a farse. their are no proper gasoline powered engines in P1. There hasn;t been for a while. the ACO is stuck balancing outdated tech with the 2011 spec Audis and Peugeot

[arakis]

just for reference a 15 year old porsche engine the gt1 one, 3.2l 2x35.7mm restrictors and delivered over 600HP, now imagine what 15 years of technoligy + 3.7l would do.

[MitchZ06]

You can't argue with torque tho....true a Porsche 3.7l flat 6 with turbos could be alot better than a current petrol turbo but it still wont throw out the newtons like a diesel. Fuel efficiency would bite them in the arse too but they'd be hoping they can have a fast enough car to make up for that. We'll see what the truth would be if Porsche does enter a prototype, until then all we say will just be speculation....

[Audi Racer]

In addition. We talk about the torque figures of the diesel etc......But has anyone here ever seen the power curve for the Puegeot V8 and the Audi V6... I highly doubt it. Torque don't mean squat if its the engine doesn;t rev in the range of peak torque......When they say the audi has 560hp and 10000ftlbs of torque those are peak values. Who knows.

the torque curves for those engines might be peaky

[MitchZ06]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

In addition. We talk about the torque figures of the diesel etc......But has anyone here ever seen the power curve for the Puegeot V8 and the Audi V6... I highly doubt it. Torque don't mean squat if its the engine doesn;t rev in the range of peak torque......When they say the audi has 560hp and 10000ftlbs of torque those are peak values. Who knows.

the torque curves for those engines might be peaky

Do you even know the rev range of a diesels powerband? Its something like 2500-3000 to 5500-6000rpm where a racing diesel is right in the meat of its horsepower and torque, it might rev to 6500rpm but it'll be making more torque than a petrol engine earlier in the rev range and will keep on chugging it out before it hits the redline.

[Audi Racer]

the diesels get 60liter tanks. the petrols get i think 75 liter tanks. fuel efficiency has been balanced by the ACO. Just because Audi says the engine makes 1000 N m of torque doesn't mean that that's over the entire rev range.

It seems to me like since the diesel only rev to about 5000rpm. the peak torque occurs right after an upshift where the RPM's drop. You might be surprised to learn that at low and high RPMS the does not make those torque figures

[arakis]

torque is only relevant if put in the right perspective, you have to acount gearing into it since only torque at the wheels is the only thing that matters. So you could have a engine with lower torque numbers but higher rpms that puts out more torque on the wheels, thats how F1 engines work, those tiny V8 put out small torque figures but at very high RPMs so when you gear it to the wheels you get huge torque figures. a 17000rpm car is gona have 3X the reduction ratio of a 6000rpm car. so torque numbers 3X less are acceptible in engine output, and since f1 engines make 300-350Nm of torque they are in esecne more powerfull then Audis 1000Nm, at the wheels of course

[Audi Racer]

[arakis]

but what i sait works for 2.4l V8 N/A unrestricted engines that last 6h Max,

[MitchZ06]

Thats a engine that revs out to 18-19000rpm and only lasts a handful of races that don't last anywhere near as long as a normal endurance race. Its irrelevant to talk about F1 engines and gearing here anyway, one engine is designed to be reliable and last more than 24 hours non stop whilst one is meant to go hard out for around an hour and require a rebuild.

Petrols will never be on par with a diesel at equivalent hp figures, its simply not possible. However if the rules were geared towards torque being equal with a hp limit for petrol 100 odd horsepower higher than diesel then we'll see petrols competing with diesels.

[Audi Racer]

Two things. Thats what Brundle was talking about. Theres a way(high revving) but its expensive and unreliable

Well i think the source of all the torque in a diesel is the turbochargers...diesels are crap without turbochargers and that makes sense because their are no spark plugs.

Easy fix. Audi and peugeot montior the boost pressures. Limit the maximum boost pressure. Or limit the amount of fuel injected into the engine. I suspect Audi would rather limit the boost pressure because limiting the amount of fuel will raise the engine temperatures since fuel acts a a coolant. Brundle also says this in that article. It really is a great theory.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Thats a engine that revs out to 18-19000rpm and only lasts a handful of races that don't last anywhere near as long as a normal endurance race. Its irrelevant to talk about F1 engines and gearing here anyway, one engine is designed to be reliable and last more than 24 hours non stop whilst one is meant to go hard out for around an hour and require a rebuild.

Petrols will never be on par with a diesel at equivalent hp figures, its simply not possible. However if the rules were geared towards torque being equal with a hp limit for petrol 100 odd horsepower higher than diesel then we'll see petrols competing with diesels.

a turbo petrol engine with the same displacement as the Diesel and same restrictors, would be a stronger engine any way you look at it.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Thats a engine that revs out to 18-19000rpm and only lasts a handful of races that don't last anywhere near as long as a normal endurance race. Its irrelevant to talk about F1 engines and gearing here anyway, one engine is designed to be reliable and last more than 24 hours non stop whilst one is meant to go hard out for around an hour and require a rebuild.

Petrols will never be on par with a diesel at equivalent hp figures, its simply not possible. However if the rules were geared towards torque being equal with a hp limit for petrol 100 odd horsepower higher than diesel then we'll see petrols competing with diesels.

Funny thing is they don't even have equivalent horsepower levels bewtten the diesle and the petrols.... thats the problem with the Judd and Toyota and Zytek motors. Their underpowered to begin with. And that just screws with the performance balancing.

[Audi Racer]

Well a couple weeks ago F1 was scripted to switch to 1.6liter turbocharged V4 that revved to around 12,000RPM. thats reasonable for reliabilty in a P1 car.

[MitchZ06]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

Well i think the source of all the torque in a diesel is the turbochargers...diesels are crap without turbochargers and that makes sense because their are no spark plugs.

Diesels do work better with a turbo however they don't need them to run and produce decent power. They have no spark plugs because diesel burns at a much higher temperature than petrol. Ever wonder why a diesel engine has a much higher compression ratio than a petrol engine? The diesel engine compresses the air in the cylinder which increases its temperature, the diesel in injected into the cylinder and ignites from the heat/pressure creating the explosive combustion. Diesels are far more efficient than a petrol engine in terms of power produced for the fuel used and thats why they can use less fuel than a petrol engine (thats why a diesel powered car will go further on the same amount of fuel as a petrol would).

Torque wise a well sorted turbocharged petrol engine will come close to a diesel (my brother has a local FPV ute, its got a turbo I6 that makes about 600hp and 1200Nm (they're made by a Ford-Prodrive company too...)) however a similar hp diesel will easily make upwards of 1500Nm of torque.

Research is your friend....