[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Why do the cars need to be slower? If the current LMP1P cars can do the speeds they are doing, why do we need to slow them down?

Unless they're wanting to slow them so they can use them on Grade 2 circuits more often?

I don't think this has to do with Grade 2 circuits per se. Rather, I think it's probably an attempt at further cost control that might even be tied into allowing road-based hypercars to be (more) competitive.

[Deleted]

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2019/0...o-and-wec.html

“Balance of performance has worked very well with a variety of platforms in GTE, it is a complex matter here but we believe it is deliverable” – ACO Sporting Director Vincent Beaumesnil.
There was a clear acknowledgment that the challenges of balancing such disparate packages require Balance of Performance and NOT Equivalence of Technology.

Le Mans is dead.

For 2021-2024 ish anyway.

Absolutely no interest for this trash

[carbsmith]

At 3:25 there was already no reason to not just allow LMP2s to run for outright win with ProAm as their handicap honestly.

3:30 is probably faster than a road based car should even be running with other cars around as far as keeping the things on the ground let alone in one piece but they can't position the class any slower.

Originally Posted by broadrun96

I would posit none of what you said is reality

Yeah I was wrong, it means a BoP class 3 seconds slower than LMP2.

[TF110]

That's what it is. They want the hypercars to be competitive so they slowed them even further. This is what happens when you have to cater to the new manufacturers because the last one's spent F1-money and left you high and dry. What a sad state to be in but this is what we get to look forward to. Maybe the cars will look cool and lap times can be faster than what they think so we do get separation of classes. I doubt crash testing is a problem, they should have plenty enough safety with how the dimensions are and the technology behind carbon chassis.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

it means a BoP class 3 seconds slower than LMP2.

We used to call that GTE, but now we'll have that as our premier package

3 BoP classes and one spec class it is then for the coming seasons. The IMSA model copypasted in essence, but looks to be even worse. DPi looks quaint in comparison now

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

We used to call that GTE, but now we'll have that as our premier package

3 BoP classes and one spec class it is then for the coming seasons. The IMSA model copypasted in essence, but looks to be even worse. DPi looks quaint in comparison now

I wouldn't go that far. I'd still prefer original cars like these hypercars over bumper sticker lmp2 done-up dpi's.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

I wouldn't go that far. I'd still prefer original cars like these hypercars over bumper sticker lmp2 done-up dpi's.

Cheapskate sticker & BoP -engineering of DPi is horrendous, but at least they're not mishmash of 5 different ideologies all jammed together

Remember the fun times of DPG3, LMP2 and Deltawing together

[GriffM3]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Cheapskate sticker & BoP -engineering of DPi is horrendous, but at least they're not mishmash of 5 different ideologies all jammed together

Remember the fun times of DPG3, LMP2 and Deltawing together

Deltawing...I think I just threw up in my mouth.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

3:30 is probably faster than a road based car should even be running with other cars around as far as keeping the things on the ground let alone in one piece but they can't position the class any slower.
.

Prototypes have had to adopt the Big Honkin Fin & Big Honkin Holes to reduce possibility of aero induced flights. The supercars won't have that?

[broadrun96]

I would like to mark this page and see how many of the LM is dead to me people actually start ignoring it from this. Stop attending and watching and maybe they'll change but it still sells tickets and has viewers so why change?

Personally I don't care, lap times don't get me off. Slower faster I couldn't care a guess what, I don't see the other lap on track, they're still racing the other guys

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Cheapskate sticker & BoP -engineering of DPi is horrendous, but at least they're not mishmash of 5 different ideologies all jammed together

Remember the fun times of DPG3, LMP2 and Deltawing together

I think by the second year of the rules all the cars will have a similar shape. There's just hypercars built purposely or taken from a road car. My guess is that manufacturers are going to take a hypercar on the street and turn it into something that just resembles it. I'm thinking more extreme than GTE, something like late 2000's GT500 or late 90s GT1 like the Mercedes CLR.

[pablocomics]

Another race weekend and here we go, we have a new variation on the future rules, now they will acept the non hybrid supercars, what's next? Squared tyres?


It's quite easy, DPi works and current supercars rules doesn't, times are changing for the motorsport, now the brands are selling ecology and **** like that. But motorsport is the opposite (noise and crazy people going fast), so the brands are not the future for rancing. Have you seen the TCR? Saloon cars racing was almost dead, but TCR came with an easy and cheap sollution, with no official teams and no complications the saloon cars came back really strong one more time. You can make your own TCR with 4 friends, glass fiber and one wrench.



Does the ACO people wants the hypercars at any cost? Ok, make it easy, just make the LMP2/Dpi shape a bit different and you'll have a nice and superdupe hypercar.


Does the ACO and Toyota want a hybrid at any cost? Ok, add one 20-30K cost capped hybrid sistem for everyone, Toyota one? Why not? I don't care about it. Technology doesn't need to be expensive, you have an hybrid Yaris by less than 15000 euros.


Who needs technology on motorsport? I don't, you neither, australian supercars neither too.



Everybody happy and cake for me.

[Deleted]

Vincent Beaumesnil, December 2018:
-- No, it's not [BoP] -- The aim is not therefore to balance the performance of the cars in relation to each other, but to curb the “development at any cost” strategy that saw budgets rocket with the previous generation of cars. So, no, it is not BOP. "
https://www.lemans.org/en/news/fia-w...ctor-aco/50599

Vincent Beaumesnil, March 2019
“Balance of performance has worked very well with a variety of platforms in GTE, it is a complex matter here but we believe it is deliverable”
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2019/0...o-and-wec.html

Vincent Beaumesnil, March 2019
"The introduction of BoP will also help to control costs"
https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/...pdate/4353468/

Go away Vincent

Originally Posted by pablocomics

Who needs technology on motorsport? I don't, you neither, australian supercars neither too.

No. Just no.

[Deleted]

I like the "manipulating" and "does not reward vehicular superiority" wordings from MP

https://racer.com/2019/03/15/insight...-to-lock-down/

-- Where this change holds significance is found in another revelation from the ACO/WEC, that Balance of Performance will be introduced in Hypercar, replacing the current Equivalence of Technology system found in LMP1. BoP and EoT differ greatly.

EoT, which has been in place for more than a decade with LMP1, gives manufacturers a list of options to choose while considering the size of engines, vehicle weight, and other key items that have given a platform for turbodiesels, gas-powered engines, and hybrid systems all to be used without penalizing one manufacturer for making better choices than the others.

Although EoT has been used like BoP since Audi and Porsche withdrew from LMP1-Hybrid and the ACO/WEC opted to balance the Toyota TS050s against non-hybrid LMP1s, traditional BoP does not reward vehicular superiority. Instead, BoP seeks to balance different types of cars – slowing the fast or speeding up the slow – in search of parity.

Working as EoT is intended, the best car will win, and without the series’ hand being felt through manipulating performance levels. BoP is the exact opposite. --

[Deleted]

Evolution of 20 years... is not a pleasant sight

2001 LM
LMGTP - Tech class, free to join
LMP900 - Tech class, free to join
LMP675 - Tech class, free to join
LMGTS - Tech class, free to join
LMGT - Tech class, free to join

2002 LM
LMGTP - Tech class, free to join
LMP900 - Tech class, free to join
LMP675 - Tech class, free to join
LMGTS - Tech class, free to join
LMGT - Tech class, free to join

2003 LM
LMGTP - Tech class, free to join
LMP900 - Tech class, free to join
LMP675 - Tech class, free to join
LMGTS - Tech class, free to join
LMGT - Tech class, free to join

2004 LM
LMP1 - Tech class, free to join
LMP2 - Tech class, free to join for privateers
LMGTS - Tech class, free to join
LMGT - Tech class, free to join

2005 LM
LMP1 - Tech class, free to join
LMP2 - Tech class, free to join for privateers
LMGT1 - Tech class, free to join
LMGT2 - Tech class, free to join

2006 LM
LMP1 - Tech class, free to join
LMP2 - Tech class, free to join for privateers
LMGT1 - Tech class, free to join
LMGT2 - Tech class, free to join

2007 LM
LMP1 - Tech class, free to join
LMP2 - Tech class, free to join for privateers
LMGT1 - Tech class, free to join
LMGT2 - Tech class, free to join

2008 LM
LMP1 - Tech class, free to join
LMP2 - Tech class, free to join for privateers
LMGT1 - Tech class, free to join
LMGT2 - Tech class, free to join

2009 LM
LMP1 - Tech class, free to join
LMP2 - Tech class, free to join for privateers
LMGT1 - Tech class, free to join
LMGT2 - Tech class, free to join

2010 LM
LMP1 - Tech class, free to join
LMP2 - Tech class, free to join for privateers
LMGT1 - Tech/ semi BoP class, free to join
LMGT2 - Tech/ semi BoP class, free to join

2011 LM
LMP1 - Tech class, free to join
LMP2 - Semi tech class (tech freeze, cost cap), free to join for privateers, pro-am
LMGTE-PRO - Almost BoP class (0,5% rule), free to join
LMGTE-AM - Sub Almost BoP class (0,5% rule), pro-am

2012 LM
LMP1 - Tech class, free to join
LMP2 - Semi tech class (tech freeze, cost cap), free to join for privateers, pro-am
LMGTE-PRO - BoP class, free to join
LMGTE-AM - BoP Sub class, pro-am

2013 LM
LMP1 - Tech class, free to join
LMP2 - Semi tech class (tech freeze, cost cap), free to join for privateers, pro-am
LMGTE-PRO - BoP class, free to join
LMGTE-AM - BoP Sub class, pro-am

2014 LM
LMP1 - Tech class, free to join
LMP2 - Semi tech class (tech freeze, cost cap), free to join for privateers, pro-am
LMGTE-PRO - BoP class, free to join
LMGTE-AM - BoP Sub class, pro-am

2015 LM
LMP1 - Tech class, free to join
LMP2 - Semi tech class (tech freeze, cost cap), free to join for privateers, pro-am
LMGTE-PRO - BoP class, free to join
LMGTE-AM - BoP Sub class, pro-am

2016 LM
LMP1 - Tech class, free to join
LMP2 - Semi tech class (tech freeze, cost cap), free to join for privateers, pro-am
LMGTE-PRO - BoP class, free to join
LMGTE-AM - BoP Sub class, pro-am

2017 LM
LMP1 - Tech class, free to join
LMP2 - Spec class, privateer, pro-am
LMGTE-PRO - BoP class, free to join
LMGTE-AM - BoP Sub class, pro-am

2018 LM
LMP1 - Tech class, free to join
LMP2 - Spec class, privateer, pro-am
LMGTE-PRO - BoP class, free to join
LMGTE-AM - BoP Sub class, pro-am

2019 LM
LMP1 - Tech class, free to join
LMP2 - Spec class, privateer, pro-am
LMGTE-PRO - BoP class, free to join
LMGTE-AM - BoP Sub class, pro-am

2020 LM
LMP1 - Tech class, free to join
LMP2 - Spec class, privateer, pro-am
LMGTE-PRO - BoP class, free to join
LMGTE-AM - BoP Sub class, proam

2021 LM
LMXXX - BoP class, free to join
LMP2 - Spec class, privateer, pro-am
LMGTE-PRO - BoP class, free to join
LMGTE-AM - BoP Sub class, pro-am

[pablocomics]

In the old 80's times it was pretty "spec class" alike. There was a billion of Porsche 956 on C1, a billion of Spice with different engines on C2 and a billion of Porsche 911 in GT class.


The technology rage of the 2000's killed the client race cars, even on GT Pro, and we need them back as soon as possible.

[Deleted]

That's different. Today it's spec because it's mandated to be that way. In the olden days you had (at times) low chassis variety because cream rises to the top, while crappy makes may fall by the wayside..

GT2 was Porsche parade at the start of 21st century as well, but couple of years later you had first Ferrari 360 and especially then 430 not only challenging, but conquering them quite often. Not with BoP, waivers and politics, but by being better. Meanwhile little guys like Spyker C8 hanged there, even if they knew their package was worse. And that was because the manufacturers, at that point, hadn't yet been conditioned to this laughable modern way of thinking, where everybody is somehow supposed to automatically be entitled to winning just because they're participating.

[Dyson Mazda]

The ACO & IMSA just needs to go with this, find a way to add 10 more entries at the LM24, and call it a day (with LMP & GT1 being close on time and all classes BoPed):

Main Classes (No Driver Rankings)
LMP (LM24, WEC, IMSA, ELMS) - DPi/LMP2 evo with spec hybrid systems
GT1 (LM24, WEC) - Hypercar Class
GT2 (LM24, WEC, IMSA) - Factory FIA GT3 + GTE OEMs that don't want to play by the FIA rules (Corvette Racing)

Support Classes (Pro/Am)
LMPC (IMSA MPC & Rolex 24, ELMS, LM Cup, AsLMS) - LMP3 evo
GT3 (IMSA, ELMS, AsLMS) - Privateer FIA GT3 - folds into GT2 for the LM24
GT4 (IMSA MPC, LM Cup, AsLMS) - FIA GT4

Note - I would love to see IMSA turn the MPC series into just LMP3 & GT4 entries and spin off TCR as the North American Touring Car Championship

This would put a lot of emphasis back on All-Pro classes and bring in a ton of OEM support between DPi, the hypercar class, and GT3. Think of how great the LM24 would be this year if you took IMSA DPi, the Intercontinental GT Challenge Grid mixed with the GTE/GTLM grid, and threw in 6-8 factory hypercars (Ferrari, Aston Martin, Mclaren, Toyota, etc.).

[TF110]

If manufacturers whispered to the ACO they wanted hypercars, that's what were getting. No DPi, no lmp2 based cars with bumpers, no lmp type cars at all. Cars that look like the GT1's up to the Toyota TS020. It'd be nice to see those again but with bop, I'm not thrilled. That's why I watch lmp1 over DPi. Even though I wish the Toyota advantage wasn't what it is, you know they are winning because they have the fastest car (and a hybrid). DPi is a guess which one has the best sandbags. Even though it's slightly better this year I don't want to see cars based off a standard chassis with new stickers, headlights and paint. That's Nascar not top class of Le Mans.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by pablocomics

There was a billion of Porsche 956 on C1, a billion of Spice with different engines on C2

Not only is that a significant exaggeration, those were both the furthest thing from spec since it would take some serious effort to find two Porsches or Spices from different teams that were the same.

Originally Posted by pablocomics

Does the ACO and Toyota want a hybrid at any cost?

Considering hybrid is not mandatory in any sense now that the class is using BoP for non-hybrid road cars anyways, apparently not.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

If manufacturers whispered to the ACO they wanted hypercars, that's what were getting. No DPi, no lmp2 based cars with bumpers, no lmp type cars at all. Cars that look like the GT1's up to the Toyota TS020. It'd be nice to see those again but with bop, I'm not thrilled. That's why I watch lmp1 over DPi. Even though I wish the Toyota advantage wasn't what it is, you know they are winning because they have the fastest car (and a hybrid). DPi is a guess which one has the best sandbags. Even though it's slightly better this year I don't want to see cars based off a standard chassis with new stickers, headlights and paint. That's Nascar not top class of Le Mans.

Gone will also be the days of eagerly discussing and speculating who will have the best advantage, who's developed the most and cleverly during the off- and in-season, what are the unknows. Things that make Le Mans what it is

It'll just be another round of soulless BoP shenanigans. Everything is decided behind closed doors and values are changed not only between events but between race week sessions as well. You can't read anything into historical data because it means absolutely nothing.

The winner will depend on drivers, luck and the above. Alright maybe with little reliability as well (given that there aren't free wave-by lucky dogs in offer like at Daytona) however if everyone's doing nearly identical GT3 laptimes and mandated clone fuel stints, it is the drivers in the end that really make the difference. Zzz

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Chiana

.....it is the drivers in the end that really make the difference. Zzz

Not that I disagree with much of this (and accepting the naivety of the sentiment), are race results determined by driver skill such a bad idea? Isn't that actually how it should be?

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Not that I disagree with much of this (and accepting the naivety of the sentiment), are race results determined by driver skill such a bad idea? Isn't that actually how it should be?

Of course that should play some factor, which is why despise the concept of mandated pro-am as well as constructing tracks with asphalt runoffs. However if it's designed to become the primary factor like in NASCAR or Indycar or whatever... it's just wrong. It should be driver and the machine... with emphasis on machine. And team work. It's for a reason that in the past ILMC and WSC didn't have pointless driver championships at all, just constructors / teams.

Nobody is discussing today "who's going to have the advantage at Le Mans" GTE wise. I mean you might say that manufacturer X has better chance than Y because they have 4 cars entered because of 2, or Y's updated BoP sheet looks much better than X's, or indeed X has that ace driver in there, but... there's really nothing substantial. You know it's just going to be door to door for 24 hours, for all the cars involved. Technology won't matter, strategy neither as they've got the same mandated fuel stints. I guess that's exciting to some but to me it's utterly pointless. And by the looks of things that is what P1/GTP/Car-Car whatever is going to be as well

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by TF110

If manufacturers whispered to the ACO they wanted hypercars, that's what were getting. No DPi, no lmp2 based cars with bumpers, no lmp type cars at all. Cars that look like the GT1's up to the Toyota TS020. It'd be nice to see those again but with bop, I'm not thrilled. That's why I watch lmp1 over DPi. Even though I wish the Toyota advantage wasn't what it is, you know they are winning because they have the fastest car (and a hybrid). DPi is a guess which one has the best sandbags. Even though it's slightly better this year I don't want to see cars based off a standard chassis with new stickers, headlights and paint. That's Nascar not top class of Le Mans.

I just want to get to the point where we have more than 1 OEM in all of LMP and there is more than 1 prototype that can win the LMP1 & LMP2 class.

The road-relevance piece is going to be nonexistent until we have teams running zero emission engines (be it battery, hydrogen, or something else). Thus at this point, just give me good racing by the best drivers and teams in the world that show up with really great looking cars.

[ApexTurtle]

I'm kinda new so please correct me if I'm wrong about something, you guys are quite knowledgeable about this stuff. But...

I've been reading up on this and a few weeks ago I was carefully reading the proposal for the 2020 regulations, and I kind of liked it. Sure, big compromise compared to what we have now but certainly some interesting things. GTP-looking cars with powerful (and freely designed!) engines and a beefy hybrid system sounded pretty good to me. I also liked the fact that road derived engines and ERS would be allowed under certain conditions. If Toyota and one or two other manufacturers would have signed up for that I would have been quite happy!


But now it seems that's all out of the window, in favor of... what exactly? Reading the above it seems like the ACO just got tired of negotiating and are just going for numbers only. They want 5 manufacturers on the grid and don't care what they bring, they'll 'just BoP it'. If that comes to pass I will be very, very disappointed I may even lose interest in Le Mans completely. BoP ruins it for me, I know lots of people enjoy it but I don't. I could explain why but I've rambled on way too long already!