[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[Mike E]

A hydrogen powered lap of the Bugatti circuit. Not sure about that passenger's belts...

https://twitter.com/MissionH24/statu...237367808?s=19

[S griffin]

That was fun to watch I have to say

[ApexTurtle]

https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/...rules/4367243/


No more moveable aero. Minimum weight of 1150kg(!!). No more forced hybrid. Maximum power of 610kW (820bhp) combined. Still the same aero restrictions. BoP. I don't think I need to go on because everybody has fallen asleep already and nobody cares anymore

[chernaudi]

Not to mention that LMP1 is set to be slowed to 3:30 around LM, which the current LMP2s with pro drivers are significantly faster than that. If LMP1 is due to be slowed by nearly 10-15 seconds a lap around LM compared to now, what will the knock on be for LMP2 and the GT classes?

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Not to mention that LMP1 is set to be slowed to 3:30 around LM, which the current LMP2s with pro drivers are significantly faster than that. If LMP1 is due to be slowed by nearly 10-15 seconds a lap around LM compared to now, what will the knock on be for LMP2 and the GT classes?

lmp2 performances is not a concern since a new and very likely less powerful spec-engine will be introduced in 2021, so they'll be slowed down easily.

I can understand that because of cost cutting, power from ICE has been decreased to <600hp to let road derived engine being used in hypercars... no need to design a new motor, no need to increase fuel efficiency... it just would need a fuel tank bop sheet.
The thing that is laughable is the 1150kg min. weight!
how can you design a so heavy prototype?



a so insanely high min. weight won't even require a carbon monocoque!
even old dp3 that had a caveman steel frametube chassis were lighter than that....


why don't set the ultimate simplification?
just bring a GTE chassis, increase restrictors - turbo boost, change some bodywork, cut reg. ballast and add a small kers on front.





Side effect of this madness is that DPi will become the fastest sportscars.

[skycafe]

Production Requirement that 20 cars be built within 2 years of car's race debut... what happens if 20 cars are not built? Retroactive Disqualification?

[TF110]

Pathetic. That's the first word that came to my mind while reading the new targets for this "hypercar" class. It's simply sad. Cars are going to be 300+kg heavier than they are now? Is this a late April fools joke or something? GT3 cars are not much heavier than that. Super GT and DTM are lighter than that. I don't know who these rules are catering to, but this is bad imo. I'll still watch but it'll definitely take a back seat vs other series like Super GT in my eyes. Man, what a way to ruin the top class even further.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by TF110

I don't know who these rules are catering to

In fairness, neither does the ACO. If it wasn't already apparent, no new major manufacturers have been truly committed to any iteration of regulations that have been proposed to this point; if they were, there would not have been so many changes up to now. Given that Vincent et al are desperate for that sweet, sweeeeeet factory dollar, the only trick they have left is to cast the regulatory net as far and as wide as reasonably* possible.

Hence, prototypes with GT minimum weights, bring-your-own-hybrid (or not), will-they-won't-they on movable aero (currently won't, possibly final?), etc.

*From their point of view, of course.

[Akrapovic]

This is a mess. Sure, slowing LMP1 and LMP2 down will keep the classes inline, but people do remember why LMP2 got the honking new Gibson right? To give it straight line speed over the GTEs to stop Ams dive bombing GTE cars. And it worked. So now you need to slow the GTEs down to about GT4 level to maintain that performance difference.

This is a complete cluster at this point. They've managed to get to a position where absolutely nobody is happy.

[ApexTurtle]

This is going to sound extremely dramatic, but it's almost the end of motorsports to me. Innovation is dead and from now on races will all be decided by some random guys in boardrooms yapping about 'balance'. Except F1 maybe? I don't know, I looked at the Super GT thread today and even that is moving even further to spec racing.

Not that I blame the ACO too much, they've tried really hard. But it's too late. We now have a climate where every manufacturer can join any series and just get gifted wins at some point which satisfies the marketing guys. And if they don't win they can just claim it's got nothing to do with them. Win win. For them.

[bentley speed 8]

Didn't GT1 cars weigh less than that?

[GasperG]

Is this the future? Everyone want's to go BEV and only Toyota is developing "conventional" drivetrains further. I wonder who will take the biggest pie of the market share.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by bentley speed 8

Didn't GT1 cars weigh less than that?

yeah, old GT1 were in the 1100-1150kg range according to bop

(usually corvette and saleen were 1150kg because of 7L displacement)


at the end won't be surprised if ACO will set some kind of custom class-one tech. rules. for hypercars.
For prototypes:

Spec diffuser, splitter and rear wing mounted on a spec mother chassis.

Just some room for custom bodywork parts (irrelevant for aero). Front kers with spec parts (software, battery etc...) and <600hp derived street/gt3 engine.
For road modified hypercars.... just bop like there's no tomorrow.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by bentley speed 8

Didn't GT1 cars weigh less than that?

I think so. When they started out it was 1100kg in the early 2000's. This is really bad. 1150kg sounds like someone came to the aco with a road car and said "let us run this, we're really popular" and they bought it. I hope it's worth it because we are getting some dumbed down crap from the things we're hearing. This is sad. At least we have the rest of the year and next year to watch fast prototypes and not glorified GTE's.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by skycafe

Production Requirement that 20 cars be built within 2 years of car's race debut... what happens if 20 cars are not built? Retroactive Disqualification?

[pablocomics]

What a nosense regulations. This time nobody could blame the FIA, the F1 or Max Mosley, that's a selfshot in the feet by themselves.


The ACO needs new blood with new ideas ASAP.

[Adam43]

As long as those ideas are going back to the old ideas.

[chernaudi]

I'd look at my newly condensed signature for my opinion on these regs in so far as I don't know how the ACO are making positive changes here.

I'm about to flat out say that the ACO for LMP1 should just follow IMSA on the DPI route, but with open chassis, open tires, and fewer spec aspects.

Movable aero getting axed, BOP that might be just as much of a crap-fest--if not maybe worse--than in GT racing or DPI for that matter, insanely heavy cars, LMP1s getting slowed to 2006 lap-times, this isn't progress, this is going backwards, big time.

The ACO administration isn't exactly covering themselves with glory here. This IMO is the effect of the 2014 rules basically being a reinvention of the wheel. Granted, no one told Audi or TMG that they had to ultimately spent twice what their 2013 era budgets were, and that Porsche had to spend similar amounts of money. But the ACO clearly encouraged it with trying to revolutionize things when evolution would've worked fine. And don't get me started on the IMO overly ambitious ERS incentive crap they tried to force down the factory teams' throats.

Face it, the ACO peed on their own foot over the past decade, but especially the past 5-6 years with how they've run the show. Things were just fine when they were getting that Volkswagen Group cash, but now they're not, Toyota aren't spending that kind of money on the WEC/LM, and no one else seems to be willing to, either. Not to mention that the ACO really shafted the privateers since 2011, even more so since 2014. Now they're getting a dose of their own medicine, and they're totally screwed IMO.

Then there's part two of my signature, "Don't Dream It, Be It". Well, to be short and sweet, the ACO's dream looks more like a nightmare, doesn't it?

I know that NASCAR kinda screwed themselves by listening to fans too much or listening to the wrong message. But us fans are the paying customers at the end of the day. We may not agree on how to fix it exactly, but we know when something's wrong or not working. ACO administration, please Take a Hint.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by bentley speed 8

Didn't GT1 cars weigh less than that?

GT1 cars occasionally made it to 3:30 with 650hp and crap 90s tires, of course they did.

Watching the Senna blitz the Huracan Performante (which is I think only about 20s off a GT3 on the Nordschleife?) on The Grand Tour by like 6% makes me wonder if we won't see cars being BoP'd slower than the stock road car pretty quickly.

[GasperG]

What is this really? No one want's to compete with Toyota? I mean there are many hybrid hypercars build in the "sheeds", the cost alone is definitly not the reason why no one wants to field a proper hybrid hypercar.

Just one example:
https://www.2luxury2.com/world-premi...brid-hypercar/

And then you have full electric hypercars with 2000 HP (Pinifrina, Rimac, Tesla...), I mean looking at all of this concepts, electric part shouldn't be a problem, just buy something off the shelf and put it together. Not to mention there are KERS sistems that have existed for a decate, just make a proper power out of it and bolt it on a ICE hypercar.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by GasperG

What is this really? No one want's to compete with Toyota? I mean there are many hybrid hypercars build in the "sheeds", the cost alone is definitly not the reason why no one wants to field a proper hybrid hypercar.

Since these cars (P1, Senna, Valkyrie, 918, LaFerrari) already exist, the question is why haven't they been raced? Had there been the slightest desire on the part of the manufacturers, ACO or SRO would fall over themselves to make it happen.

Perhaps the question should be: why *would* the manufacturers want to race these cars against each other? The problem with motorsport is that only one car wins. The rest get their mystique punctured. So either they get BOP'd, in which case the race cars don't show their true potential, or one car dominates.

The hypercar makers get all the value they need from these cars through the publicity and by controlling who buys one. McLaren showed off the Senna GTR at Goodwood this weekend - a car that will only ever be run in anger by millionaires on private track days - and provided road cars for selfie-taking guests on hot laps, but they were unable to place a 720 GT3 into Blancpain. What does that tell you about their priorities?

I'd go so far as to say that I don't think there is a future for manufacturer prototypes *at all*. Factory GTE provides all the racing exposure the manufacturers require and customer GT3 (which is absolutely thriving) pays the bills. The ACO should focus on privateer LMP1 and LMP2 as the future of prototypes, not cravenly beg unwilling manufacturers to bring cars they plainly don't want to race.

[ApexTurtle]

That doesn't seem right, the problem is rather that the ACO caved to three manufacturers that clearly do want to race these cars. In fact the problem is they only want to race those cars and not build new ones.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

That doesn't seem right, the problem is rather that the ACO caved to three manufacturers that clearly do want to race these cars. In fact the problem is they only want to race those cars and not build new ones.

I guess you could argue from my own logic that falling over themselves to allow the hypercars to race is exactly what the ACO *are* doing.

I remain sceptical that the manufacturers genuinely want to race them against each other. I don't see what (for example) McLaren and Aston Martin have to gain by allowing the Senna and the Valkyrie to go head-to-head.

And the price the ACO are willing to pay in terms of regulations seems excessive, IMO.

[ApexTurtle]

Well in a sense I think you're also correct that they don't actually want to race each other. But that's what BoP is for. That way they know they get at least one guaranteed victory. We already know that whoever wins Le Mans in 2021 won't be allowed to win in 2022.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

This is going to sound extremely dramatic, but it's almost the end of motorsports to me.

I guess I should again start watching the Toyota LMP1 show while it lasts, because things can get a lot worse.

And that all-electric onboard lap posted several days ago - I mean wow, I would get more excitement from driving a go-kart. I understand it't the Bugatti circuit, but still. Who prefers FE over F1?