Laguna Seca Crash

[arakis]

Last Lap video

here watch the crash and give your opinion who was at fault and who/if anyone should be punished

[The Badger]

I dont think their driving was totally respectful of each other , I also wouldnt dole out penalties either , as I also believe that the accident wasnt intentional .

[NightStalk3r]

Both were driving hard and banging eachother, i put it down to a racing incident.

[Mal]

I dont think the crash was the infringement rather the avoidable contact on the last corner for which the Corvette would normally have received as penalty.

[johntt]

The contact at the first corner was a racing incident.

The contact at the final corner was again a racing incident.

What happened after that with them shoving each other across the track deserves punishment, its the sort of driving i've seen online on Need For Speed Shift which is not the sort of driving that belongs on a race track.

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by johntt

What happened after that with them shoving each other across the track deserves punishment, its the sort of driving i've seen online on Need For Speed Shift which is not the sort of driving that belongs on a race track.

Why should they be punished for that? Risi weren't punished for doing it in 2007 at Sebring, and correct me if im wrong but i dont believe Ian James was given a penalty at Sebring this year for putting Marc Lieb hard into the wall.

[MGDavid]

what goes around, comes around; the Corvette started it.
All contact is unavoidable with the right mindset (unless something fails or breaks of course)

[Mal]

Originally Posted by johntt

The contact at the final corner was again a racing incident.

People have in the past received stop n go's for less than this so to be consistent they should follow the same course. It was this incident after all that enabled the situation to occur on the run to the flag.

[AJLav]

Being the last lap and IMSA/ALMS not wanting to contradict themselves, probably let the finishing order stand because of the ruling that they made for the sebring finish where Melo pushed Jorg to the wall as well on the last corner of the last lap... I believe we had this same conversation then as well... to bad this time a 5 race old corvette got written off... But I call it a racing incodent where both competitors were going for it.

[Richard C]

Honestly, by looking at just that one camera angle of the finish line accident it’s hard to tell and any opinion is just speculation. Obviously they both were involved in the fact that both cars were in the positions they were in when Jan spun. Jorg was squeezing Jan and neither Jan nor Jorg was going to give up. It’s hard to say how the spun happened without more info. More speculation on my part is that I don’t think that Jorg turned left into Jan’s rear, but rather that Jan came across left to right into Jorg. I think Jan may have kissed the wall and rebounded or wiggled back into Jorg accidentally. I also think that Jorg was very lucky to not get caught up in the accident.

I think there are two main aggravating factors in this. First Jan was pushing the envelope with respect to aggressive driving. The bump in the last corner was obviously meant to get Jorg loose. Jan was faster, but in my opinion the last turn bump is not how you should win a race. Second Jorg has already been burnt by a last lap “bump and pass” scenario in which there was no punishment and he came out the looser in that example. The saying “Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me” comes to mind.

So I have mixed feelings about this. Everyone wants better racing and if the final bumps at the flag had not resulted in an accident there would have been some grumblings, but in general the last lap would have been held up as another example of “close and great racing” and “what the sport should be these days”. It makes for good drama but not clean racing between gentlemen.

Personally I hate to stifle passionate racing. Maybe Jan should deserve a penalty for the last turn bump. If it can be shown that Jorg spun Jan then maybe he should also be penalized. They could let the results stand as is, but hand out grid position penalties next year. However precedents have been set by the officials with regards to this type of rough driving, so I picked the “No one was at fault it’s a racing incident” option.

[fieldodreams79]

i'm really torn on whether to let it go on account of one them (many) racing deals or punish both.

i voted for one of those racing deals, but there will definetely be discussions during the off season and maybe there should be probabtion for both teams and drivers, which is a form of punishment for both.

i guess that makes me a fence rider.

and Jan was punished prior to crossing the finish. bit he'll be sore for a while.

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

Both were driving hard and banging eachother, i put it down to a racing incident.

could have sworn you thought Jan was to blame for everything

[R4z3rw33n]

I think Jan instigated the incident, but I don't think he deserves punishment. After all, it is motorsport. Nobody likes to see cars destroyed, but at the end of the day they're both top tier teams fighting for position. These things will happen.

Joerg's move seemed legal to me. It was as if he went into damage control mode as soon as the Corvette nudged his rear bumper.
He was simply defending position.

[Jonerz]

Both drivers acted immaturely, which has been said. Jan was driving with his elbows out (I've said that as well). I don't think penalties should be handed out to the teams, perhaps probation for at least Jan, if not both. I voted for both should be punished as it was closest to my feelings (democracy WORKS!) but it certainly was not a racing incident, it was a racing incident that got way out of hand.

More proof that my beloved democracy works, and humans don't go wheels off when given too much say, "Uuuu nice crash we should have more of those" actually received a vote!

Chris

[trahsub]

I just re-watched the end of Sebring 2007 and Joerg would have crashed had he not backed off. In this situation, there was no way he was going to gie room considering he was on the other end two years ago.

But to have a million dollar car totalled, that can't happen and future incidents on that scale will hurt the series big time. I voted racing incident, but both teams need warning that the next big 'bump' will carry a serious penalty.

[arakis]

I guess they wont hand out penalties, 'because that kind of racing brings in the crowds,And I am guessing imsa think like this: the team and drivers know for them self how much their cars cost, and that its counterproductive to destroy a million dollar car and risk ones life just for a single race win, I think Jan will think twice next time he wants to pass using metal instated of skill

Not saying Sebring 2007 was an ok move, it has nothing similar to this crash other than it happening on the last corner.
Melo hit berg in the corner and was using berg to slow himself down, on the exit ferrari had more speed and he was in front he simply closed the door on Bermiester and there was nothing berg could do other then let go of the throtle. Melo was in front and was wedging berg in.

Here Jan was in front and berg hit him in the back, he didnt close the door on him, he literally executed a pit manuver,

One uses the racing line to close the door on ones competitor by
A being in front
B placing one self on one edge of a ever shrinking door for the other car,
neither of these happened in Laguna seca

[Mal]

Originally Posted by arakis

Here Jan was in front and berg hit him in the back, he didnt close the door on him, he literally executed a pit manuver,

One uses the racing line to close the door on ones competitor by
A being in front
B placing one self on one edge of a ever shrinking door for the other car,
neither of these happened in Laguna seca

No - here Jorg was in front and Jan nudged him in the corner to move him off line to enable the pass - Jorg then vigerously defended his position. In the light of Sebring 2007 I dont blame him.

The situations are similar in that initial contact was made to enable track position to be gained

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by trahsub

I just re-watched the end of Sebring 2007 and Joerg would have crashed had he not backed off. In this situation, there was no way he was going to gie room considering he was on the other end two years ago.

But to have a million dollar car totalled, that can't happen and future incidents on that scale will hurt the series big time. I voted racing incident, but both teams need warning that the next big 'bump' will carry a serious penalty.

There was on big difference, he never got in front of the Ferrari, so he had to back off. In this case the Corvette was ahead so he should have given him room.

DK

[Purist]

He got ahead of the Ferrari in the first half of Sunset Bend, and then the Ferrari turned in tighter on the second half and pushed the Porsche onto a less preferred line.

As for the Panoz incident this year, the Panoz was effectively against the wall, the Porsche driver thought he was clear, and the end result was the overtaker turning himself into the front straight wall on driver's left.

I just don't think the physics make sense that Jorg could have used a PIT on Jan, and it didn't look like he did either. Remember, that police maneuver requires you to be with your nose right at his rear corner. At best, Jan had half the length of the Corvette in front of the nose of the Porsche. With the Vette being virtually against the wall, the only way for there to be physical space for the Corvette to pivot, and the back end to swing out relative to the left side of the Porsche, is for the Porsche to have moved right.

The bump and run was over the line, and so was Jorg's block. Both should get some sort of sanction for their conduct.

I suppose if this gets the attention of some roundy-round fans, it could be a good thing in terms of exposure, but this CANNOT become any sort of a "normal" occurrence in the ALMS. The rulesmakers need to do their utmost to ensure it doesn't.

[fieldodreams79]

if you notice in the video, at the top of the screen, the "unoffical GT2 results" were already being displayed at the apex of 11, showing the 45 had already taken the win.

[trahsub]

Originally Posted by dxk1

There was on big difference, he never got in front of the Ferrari, so he had to back off. In this case the Corvette was ahead so he should have given him room.

DK

Give him room, are you kiddning? They were at driving war out there. Should he have baked Jan a cake as well? Right after the bump by the vette prior to the straight it was clear that Jorg was not interested in giving Jan any room. Although there were differences between this and 07' Sebring, there were only two options for Jan, 2nd place or wreck. We know the conclusion.

[chernaudi]

I voted that is was a racing incidient because under the circumstances, that's what it was. One can say that one or the other was being more pushy or a bigger jerk, but that's racing, and if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

However, I do feel that at least some blame should be placed in the laps of IMSA officals, namely race director Beaux Barfield, for allowing things to come to that. Remember Sebring '07? I don't know if Mr. Barfield was RD back then, but that point is sort of irrelvant as he followed that same precident-it's all right to go all NASCAR Saturday Night Special on the last lap of a race, especially for the lead.

In the last few years, I've never seen Audi and Peugeot, or Audi, Porsche, and Acura race each other like that. Granted, the Audis usually checked out on the Porsche and Acura cars once they got by, but none of those guys ever took each other out like that, let alone on purpose(and I'm not saying that that's the case here). I doubt that the final result was achived on purpose, but sometimes IMSA can't just let these guys 100% police themselves. Sometimes, a line has to be drawn, and how much tolerance will be allowed.

In the past, IMSA has shown little tolerance over such incidents. But this year, they seem to have relaxed their rules over "avoidable" contact. I'll be the first to tell you that some of IMSA's calls in that area were/are bullcrap. But still, these are expensive machines that we're dealing with, and I doubt that the car owners appreciate paying for the repair bills on those cars, especially if a dim-witted gentleman driver causes an accident, or, worse, if two guys let the red mist get the better of them. That's where the line should be drawn.

I have no problem with the theory of "rubbin' is racin'", but there are times and places for that, and times where it just doesn't work.

So the OP of this topic/poll may want to add another voting choice: "It was a racing incident contributed to by hazardous IMSA precident"

[rax262]

This incident really started three or four laps before the final crash with Jan and Jorg banging doors and obviously the situation escalated beyond what anyone expected. IMO IMSA had several opportunities to issue a penalty or a warning on both drivers but they did not.

While it was regrettable you have to ask yourself: What would I as the driver have done differently? Jorg was obviously blocking Jan, and Jan was using every inch of track to execute a pass. Part of me says I wouldn't bump the guy in front of me or that I would cede the position if he pulls away by more than half of a car length. But on the other hand I'm racing for position on the last lap for the class win and the other guy is not going to give in. Neither am I. We both go for it and if we wreck then it was just a racing incident.

[JHamilton]

I posted this in the race thread, but I guess it should go here instead...

So, the 45 took a defensive line into every corner blocking a faster car from passing. The 3 found a way to get inside the 45 but was penalized for it. The 3 then lets the 45 back around, catches up, and attemps a pass on the outside that fails because he is being blocked on the inside. The 3 then bumps the 45 in the slowest corner on the track and the 45 wrecks him down the strait.

All of this is the #3's fault? Seems to me that if the 45 had held a normal racing line we wouldn't be talking about any of this. Of course, what the 45 did was legal, but then he shouldn't be surprised to get a bump in the final corner should he? I'm not sure how Jan could have wrecked himself either... he was in front after being pushed to the inside wall. Jorg wrecked him plain and simple.

I think everything that happened up to the front stretch was racing incidents. The wreck on the frontstrech and driving the vette into the wall was dangerous.

[CarolK]

Thought for a moment I was at a NASCAR race watching one of the Bush brothers going for a win. That's where the bumpin' and bangin' belong.

[KSR88]

I was there--on the day. The Factory (read that U.S. Taxpayer supported) Covette team hit----Brabham's Highcroft car causing damage, 2 Challenge GT Porsches, rammed the BMW, ran the Vici Porsche off the road to get by, took out the Dyson Lola and hit Bergmeister 3 or 4 times before the wreck.
They reaped what the sowed to be biblical.
I wonder if there were radio instructions to the driver to hit Bergmeister?
When the Lizards were run into the Sebring wall there was a protest......that was denied.
I am unaware of a protest here--probably since #3 isn't clean and the radio tapes may be difficult to explain.