Can Alexander Albon survive at Red Bull?

[gert]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

I think you got timelines confused

No, he go that absolutely right.

And even Vettel, the only driver to win titles with them, jumped ship when he smelt he was becoming number 2. We all put it down to Danny being better than Vettel, but then Danny did the exact same thing - felt the winds change and moved on.

[steve_r]

Albon Overrated? Wow.

I'm not sure exactly who is overrating Albon? Especially on here where we are on page 24 of the thread which is more or less everyone saying that he is having a terrible time of it. The thread will not die, because there is new ammunition almost every race weekend.

Albon did a Kobayashi at Torro Rosso at the same time that Gasly was tarnishing his reputation, and RBR knee jerked yet again and prematurely swapped the drivers. With hindsight, this was probably the worst thing to happen to Albon, who could have used a couple of seasons F1 experience matching or narrowly beating Kvyat in the junior team.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Albon Overrated? Wow.

I'm not sure exactly who is overrating Albon? Especially on here where we are on page 24 of the thread which is more or less everyone saying that he is having a terrible time of it. The thread will not die, because there is new ammunition almost every race weekend.

Albon did a Kobayashi at Torro Rosso at the same time that Gasly was tarnishing his reputation, and RBR knee jerked yet again and prematurely swapped the drivers. With hindsight, this was probably the worst thing to happen to Albon, who could have used a couple of seasons F1 experience matching or narrowly beating Kvyat in the junior team.

Nobody rates him. It's just Max fans frothing at the mouth to post stats we all know. [Insert already tired joke about location checks out]

[gert]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

so that's 9 wins in 163 races

That's a horrible win ration of 5,52%.
What a useless driver!

How does that stack up against a win ratio of 7,63% ?
Equally useless, a capable #2 driver, or a future star driver ?

[Richard C]

I don't follow American football, but there is a concept called a "draft bust". So the NFL uses a draft system in which new players are then selected by teams in a specific order with the order of selection usually driven by perceived player pecking order. And a draft bust being someone who is selected early on (high expectations) and then their actual performance working out to be quite bad (bust).

A "draft bust" is not an official thing, but rather a label applied to those who just didn't live up anywhere close to expectations. They are usually selected in the first round play poorly for a few years, get moved around from team to team (each new team is trying to unlock that expected potential) and then they exit the sport within a handful of years.

F1 doesn't have (or need) a draft system, but I think people like Kvyat and Albon (two examples) who quickly rose to a top team and then it just didn't work out for whatever reason. Maybe it's their fault, maybe someone else's fault, maybe a combination of things. But in the end, they where ranked highly initially and then quickly busted out. "F1 busts"!

Richard

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by gert

No, he go that absolutely right.

No he did'nt, because Vettel did not become nr 2, he was BEATEN, and Ricciardo was also eventualy deaten by Max, both did not start out as NR2 driver

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by gert

That's a horrible win ration of 5,52%.
What a useless driver!

How does that stack up against a win ratio of 7,63% ?
Equally useless, a capable #2 driver, or a future star driver ?

who has 7,63 according to you?

if you are refering to Max he now has 13,7%, INCLUDING F1, if you take Alex his win percentage including F1 you get 4,6%

[gert]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

No he did'nt, because Vettel did not become nr 2, he was BEATEN, and Ricciardo was also eventualy deaten by Max, both did not start out as NR2 driver

Did you actually read his post?
He never said they started as the #2 but they both moved out immediately when it became clear they would be cast into that role (i.e. for the following season)

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

who has 7,63 according to you?

Does it matter?

How would you rate that driver? A worthy successor to Albon or not?
Or is his/her win ratio too low to get even considered for that?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

No he did'nt, because Vettel did not become nr 2, he was BEATEN, and Ricciardo was also eventualy deaten by Max, both did not start out as NR2 driver

The tense is important in my post.

[djinvicta]

Red Bull need Checo in that seat to support/pressure Max

[S griffin]

I think Checo has other ideas. Max is struggling enough as it is to keep the car up there, the last thing Perez wants to do is be a number. If a seat becomes free at Merc, I can see him signing a contract there

[peebee2]

Lol, Perez would kill for the RB seat.

There is virtually zero chance at Merc for him.

[EastonNeston]

I'm looking forward to the tantrums when whoever has the second seat at Red Bull gets close to or beats Max.
It will be entertaining!

[E.B]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Lol, Perez would kill for the RB seat.

There is virtually zero chance at Merc for him.

Surely the Merc seat if it became available would be George's for the tking.... im sure he would have an exit clause in his Williams contract for a Merc call up.

Such an event would then put Perez in prime position for Williams. However the RB seat even with the 'Max Factor' is a better gig.

Very hypothetical though re Merc as I have no doubt Hamilton will be at Merc next year and 2022

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I don't follow American football, but there is a concept called a "draft bust". So the NFL uses a draft system in which new players are then selected by teams in a specific order with the order of selection usually driven by perceived player pecking order. And a draft bust being someone who is selected early on (high expectations) and then their actual performance working out to be quite bad (bust).

A "draft bust" is not an official thing, but rather a label applied to those who just didn't live up anywhere close to expectations. They are usually selected in the first round play poorly for a few years, get moved around from team to team (each new team is trying to unlock that expected potential) and then they exit the sport within a handful of years.

F1 doesn't have (or need) a draft system, but I think people like Kvyat and Albon (two examples) who quickly rose to a top team and then it just didn't work out for whatever reason. Maybe it's their fault, maybe someone else's fault, maybe a combination of things. But in the end, they where ranked highly initially and then quickly busted out. "F1 busts"!

Richard

The circumstances behind Kvyat's promotion (necessity, he had earned his slot as next in line) and Albon's (frankly chaos, he was the last F1-ready driver yet to have a shot in RBR) surely suggest there is a major difference between the two here. That said, I get your point, but Kvyat did outscore Ricciardo in 2015 and scored the team's only podium of 2016 before his unceremonious sacking! I feel he has had his career shafted purely because Verstappen was too good to ignore.

[steve_r]

Kvyat was indeed rather prematurely demoted. However with hindsight its hard to say that it was not the correct decision. Since then, Kvyatt really has not caught the eye despite being a fixture for years. He has been largely outperformed by Gasly (even his brilliant result this weekend just gone, he qualified behind his teammate, and was behind in the race until Gaslys retirement).

Indeed, even when Gasly was struggling in the main team, it was Albon who was catching the eye in the junior team.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Indeed, even when Gasly was struggling in the main team, it was Albon who was catching the eye in the junior team.

Ummm how? With his practice crashes? Kvyat had outscored him when the Thai was promoted, largely thanks to his 3rd in Germany! Albon had some solid drives but he still looked like he had a good amount of learning to do.

The strange thing is that Albon looked decent enough at the end of 2019, but after the off-season, he just seems to be regressing painfully as the year passes and the pressure continues to mount. A couple of years' more experience could really have helped him here, but alas Red Bull had other ideas...

[S griffin]

It all seems a far cry from the season opening GP at Austria when it looked like he would win before he clashed with Hamilton, and then retired with mechanical failure

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

Ummm how? With his practice crashes? Kvyat had outscored him when the Thai was promoted, largely thanks to his 3rd in Germany! Albon had some solid drives but he still looked like he had a good amount of learning to do.

The strange thing is that Albon looked decent enough at the end of 2019, but after the off-season, he just seems to be regressing painfully as the year passes and the pressure continues to mount. A couple of years' more experience could really have helped him here, but alas Red Bull had other ideas...

Hasn't it already been stated by RB that this years RB is a much tougher car than last years, added to which the Tauri is a far simpler car to run at the limit than even last years STR was? There is also the comment (think it was Ted k) a few weeks back that the changes made to the RB that were supposed to help Albon have actually worked out better for Max.

With that in mind it's pretty obvious why Albon is being defended and Gasly is not being recalled.

There is obviously something in the data that is telling RB that Albon is having a tougher time than Gasly was. This doesn't take away the fact that Alex has made some awful gaffes, nor that maybe there is no other driver available at present who could deal with the awkward RB any better.

[Richard C]

I am curious if anyone else thinks there is legs to the speculation that the reason (or part of the reason) RBR is giving Albon every chance to prove himself (including now waiting until end of season) is that Albon is Thai and that Red Bull itself is half owned (more than half?) by the Thai Yoovidhya family. With the implication that Albon is the first Thai F1 driver and this is out of respect to the other half of Red Bull ownership.

it hate to bring this up because it bring a nationalistic side of things to the discussion (which can get ugly... especially when the location checks out!)

Richard

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I am curious if anyone else thinks there is legs to the speculation that the reason (or part of the reason) RBR is giving Albon every chance to prove himself (including now waiting until end of season) is that Albon is Thai and that Red Bull itself is half owned (more than half?) by the Thai Yoovidhya family. With the implication that Albon is the first Thai F1 driver and this is out of respect to the other half of Red Bull ownership.

it hate to bring this up because it bring a nationalistic side of things to the discussion (which can get ugly... especially when the location checks out!)

Richard

That must be it: have you ever seen Marko and Horner defending a driver that made mistakes like Albon did at Imola?

Marko and Mateschitz have replaced drivers who did better than Albon in the past, both at Red Bull and Toro Rosso, Gasly had 2 races he finished outside of the points in his 10 races for Red Bull, Albon now has 3 out of 22 races(without counting Brazil and Austria 1)

I think if he has any other nationality he would have been replaced races ago, there has been minimal inmprovement in qualifying, but his race performance seems to be getting worse with every race.

[Adam43]

Could just be that there are less options at the moment and perhaps wanting to not be so knee-jerk as they have been previously. ???

[S griffin]

I guess that’s part of the problem. On previous form we have been kind of expecting Alex to get the push for a while

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I am curious if anyone else thinks there is legs to the speculation that the reason (or part of the reason) RBR is giving Albon every chance to prove himself (including now waiting until end of season) is that Albon is Thai and that Red Bull itself is half owned (more than half?) by the Thai Yoovidhya family. With the implication that Albon is the first Thai F1 driver and this is out of respect to the other half of Red Bull ownership.

it hate to bring this up because it bring a nationalistic side of things to the discussion (which can get ugly... especially when the location checks out!)

Richard

It's a possibility. But to be pedantic, Alex is half Thai. He's also half British. And having been brought up and educated in the UK and done all his early racing in the UK, you could say he is genetically half Thai but culturally fully British.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

It's a possibility. But to be pedantic, Alex is half Thai. He's also half British. And having been brought up and educated in the UK and done all his early racing in the UK, you could say he is genetically half Thai but culturally fully British.

Good point. Two questions (I have no idea the answers).

1. How is he perceived in Thailand? In short, does he have following similar to Max with respect to the Dutch? And if Albon is culturally British, does that even matter? I can imagine him still being labelled as "One of ours" by the Thai. But I don't know Thai culture enough to understand how they might perceive him.

2. Is there much of an F1 culture/following in Thailand? Is it important to them or do they say "What is F1?"

Richard