[Race] A Korean GP after all?!

[Wims]

The new layout is much better for modern f1 cars than the old one. It will be totally impossible to overtake on the old layout with todays aero monsters. Just look at the corner profiles. It will be impossible to stay close enough to the car infront because of wake turbulence

[Sodemo]

For me the old Osterreich track was the best in the world, what a shame that nothing is sacred.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I don't know why they didn't just keep the old track an build the new one within it.

[Purist]

Wims, you don't need a bloody hairpin for every corner, nor do you need one to make an overtaking spot.

There would be enough of a deceleration into Hella Licht, Glatz, Bosch, and Rindt to give opportunities to overtake. This would be especially true as the current cars would be heavily trimmed out for top-end on the old Osterreichring. On top of that, those faster turns, particularly Bosch and Rindt, would give real scope for multiple lines, like Turn 1 at Brno, or the Peralta(da) at Mexico City.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Purist

Wims, you don't need a bloody hairpin for every corner, nor do you need one to make an overtaking spot.

There would be enough of a deceleration into Hella Licht, Glatz, Bosch, and Rindt to give opportunities to overtake. This would be especially true as the current cars would be heavily trimmed out for top-end on the old Osterreichring. On top of that, those faster turns, particularly Bosch and Rindt, would give real scope for multiple lines, like Turn 1 at Brno, or the Peralta(da) at Mexico City.

Following on from that, it was those sweeping curves that's made the old track stand out and add variety to the GP circus; it was also very poular amongst the drivers because it was so different.

[JABWOA]

Back to the topic, from all the photos, reports and videos, the track itself appears somewhat compelte apart from final track surface which wont take that long to do, should be easily by the Oct 11 final inspection. Then just needs the ripples and paint applied if not already completed. And who cares about grandstands as long as the teams and media have a place to stick thier bums. The question I have it what about the area the officials/marshal work in?

[Asa]

Michelle Yeoh is rumoured to be romantically tied with her fellow Korean film star Jung Woo-sung, after they co-starred in John Woo's film "Reign of Assasins".

Michelle's boyfriend FIA president Jean Todt is cancelling the Korean Grand Prix in revenge.





Just a joke.

[6157]

Originally Posted by JABWOA

Back to the topic, from all the photos, reports and videos, the track itself appears somewhat compelte apart from final track surface which wont take that long to do, should be easily by the Oct 11 final inspection.

It will be a problem when it doesn't have enough time to cure properly and the cars are peeling chunks of rubber 30 minutes into the Friday morning session.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by 6157

It will be a problem when it doesn't have enough time to cure properly and the cars are peeling chunks of rubber 30 minutes into the Friday morning session.

Not too mention damage to the tarmac itself, particularly in the braking areas and corners.

[Wims]

Originally Posted by 6157

It will be a problem when it doesn't have enough time to cure properly and the cars are peeling chunks of rubber 30 minutes into the Friday morning session.

Yeah, it will be like driving on gravel.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Could make for an interesting race though (alá Canada)?

Selby

[Purist]

I was thinking more along the lines of Dallas '84.

[bjohnsonsmith]

The 1973 Belgian nearly got cancelled because the track was breaking up, due to it being hastily resurfaced.

There were also problems with the surface at the 1988 Detroit GP and concrete was used.

[bravo]

Canada 2010 was an excellent race. Re-surfacing should be required 4 weeks before each GP!

[6157]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Not too mention damage to the tarmac itself, particularly in the braking areas and corners.

That's actually what I meant, the pavement. I wasn't even thinking about tires when I wrote that, don't know why.

Originally Posted by bravo

Canada 2010 was an excellent race. Re-surfacing should be required 4 weeks before each GP!

Aside from being an insane annual expenditure, 4 weeks is not nearly enough time for pavement to cure properly. If they get the paving done by the time the FIA inspects the track, that's what Korea will have, 4 weeks.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by 6157

That's actually what I meant, the pavement. I wasn't even thinking about tires when I wrote that, don't know why.



Aside from being an insane annual expenditure, 4 weeks is not nearly enough time for pavement to cure properly. If they get the paving done by the time the FIA inspects the track, that's what Korea will have, 4 weeks.

Is that right? AFAIK, tarmac (pavement, asphalt etc) never actually fully cures. We drive on newly surfaced roads within 24hrs in this country. Surely 4wks is plenty?

[Wims]

The forces working on the road compared to a racetrack are totally different. Think having 650 bhp working on the rear wheels, with thousands of kilogram of downforce, alot of it created from the diffuser sucking the car down to the road. The undertray downforce will also literally suck the tarmac off the road if it havent been given enough time to cure

[JamesH]

Found this somewhere on the net, dont know how accurate it is.
"
Asphalt does not take 3 weeks to cure. It is driveable once it cools down to a surface temparature below 50 degrees celsius though most places wait until it cools to 40 before letting traffic on. That takes about a few hours or so depending on air temperature. That is full live loading of all vehicles (Cars, trucks, transports, etc..). It is not an ideal way to pave but it is done daily and with very few problems. Ideally you would want to wait a week to identify any deficiencies,so you can correct them, especially on a circuit.
"

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Wims

The forces working on the road compared to a racetrack are totally different. Think having 650 bhp working on the rear wheels, with thousands of kilogram of downforce, alot of it created from the diffuser sucking the car down to the road. The undertray downforce will also literally suck the tarmac off the road if it havent been given enough time to cure

I don't think weight is a problem - 38000kg trucks drive on it and brake hard on new tarmac all the time without problems. More than an F1 car can produce by a long long way. And since tarmac doesn't really cure, once its down to the 40degs from the above quote it must have reached almost optimal strength/grip with the undersurface.

[6157]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Is that right? AFAIK, tarmac (pavement, asphalt etc) never actually fully cures. We drive on newly surfaced roads within 24hrs in this country. Surely 4wks is plenty?

Originally Posted by Wims

The forces working on the road compared to a racetrack are totally different. Think having 650 bhp working on the rear wheels, with thousands of kilogram of downforce, alot of it created from the diffuser sucking the car down to the road. The undertray downforce will also literally suck the tarmac off the road if it havent been given enough time to cure

Ditto.

Running at 55 mph on a street car is a hell of a lot different than doing 160 with several hard braking areas on a racetrack.

Originally Posted by JamesH

I don't think weight is a problem - 38000kg trucks drive on it and brake hard on new tarmac all the time without problems. More than an F1 car can produce by a long long way. And since tarmac doesn't really cure, once its down to the 40degs from the above quote it must have reached almost optimal strength/grip with the undersurface.

There are different types of pavement used between city streets, highways, and racetracks. It's not just about cooling but it's about cooling and sealing. Roadways can get away with it because if the pavement doesn't seal completely, street tires are made to handle difficult, abrasive conditions, Formula 1 tires, not so much. The longer it cools, the more it seals, the better for race cars.

You also have to remember it's not just "driving", it's the loading at speed. There's 3 heavy braking points, not to mention numerous high speed sweeping turns, that is much more difficult for pavement to take than a 38000kg dump truck.

I just checked the schedule and failed to notice Korea is a little over 2 weeks away, as of now. I will be pleasantly surprised if this race comes off without one issue. Do I expect it to? Not at all. I fully expect major issues with the track.

[JABWOA]

Evan a track as old as Monza needed track modifications made between Friday and Saturday practise sessions.

[TF110]

It'll be ready. Everyone expecting it to not be will look at it and say wow. It's a good layout. I don't care about the 'tilkedrome' or whatever they call it syndrome. I think the flow of the circuit is a combination of a few of his newer tracks. Long straights, some flowing corners, a couple of tighter ones, a nice right to left section as well. From Chandhok's laps it looks like it'll be a good track. Pavement was said to be laid down today, and that's the final layer, so with Japan happening just today, they still have two weeks to get it right. It'll be done.

[rocketracer]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The 1973 Belgian nearly got cancelled because the track was breaking up, due to it being hastily resurfaced.

There were also problems with the surface at the 1988 Detroit GP and concrete was used.

Was it argentina 1981 which also had problems with the track breaking up into marbles?

i think a sequence of 2 or 3 corners (recently laid) had broken up into marbles, so much so that in a dry race, nearly all drivers were having trouble keeping it on the road through this section of track. Made for a very interesting race anyway....

PS i think the difference between large trucks using a road surface and f1 cars on a recently laid surface is not the downwards force, but the front / back sideways motion generated through acceleration, braking and cornering. This obviously moves the asphalt apart so that it is no longer a cohesive whole, and thus you get breaking up of the surface into smaller marbles.

[WapFlap]

Originally Posted by TF110

It'll be ready. Everyone expecting it to not be will look at it and say wow. It's a good layout. I don't care about the 'tilkedrome' or whatever they call it syndrome. I think the flow of the circuit is a combination of a few of his newer tracks. Long straights, some flowing corners, a couple of tighter ones, a nice right to left section as well. From Chandhok's laps it looks like it'll be a good track. Pavement was said to be laid down today, and that's the final layer, so with Japan happening just today, they still have two weeks to get it right. It'll be done.

Two weeks is not enough. Asphalt needs about 3 weeks to 'dry'. By then the slippery oil is gone. I remember some practise session in 2002 or 2003 at Interlagos where there was some of this oil coming up, making some resurfaced parts of the circuit extremely slippery, imagine a whole track...

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by WapFlap

Two weeks is not enough. Asphalt needs about 3 weeks to 'dry'. By then the slippery oil is gone. I remember some practise session in 2002 or 2003 at Interlagos where there was some of this oil coming up, making some resurfaced parts of the circuit extremely slippery, imagine a whole track...

Does it need that long? I have been trying to find some reference and most stuff says it ready within hours (as posted above). It seems to me that most problems with tarmac on circuits are caused by 'hasty' resurfacing, which, presumably, is not what is happening in Korea.

Re; Lorries vs F1 car, and their different forces involved. People seem to be saying that F1 cars are harsher on the tarmac, but I find it difficult to believe that a 600kg car + downforce puts more strain on tarmac than a 38,000kg truck under full braking. Admittedly the truck has more wheels to spread the load, but still, there is a lot of difference there.