Another one bites the dust...

TimD · 24 Jul 2001, 08:29 (Ref:120955)

I've heard a nasty rumour that Historic Motor Racing magazine is no more.

This really saddens me, as this is what - the second, third time that Graham Gauld has tried to market a quality, scholarly Historic magazine, and come a cropper. It's not for the lack of a target audience, surely? There are hundreds of competitors out there, let alone the thousands of spectators who rush out to see them.

And any journal that carries such an excellent study on Masten Gregory is all right with me...!

Did you buy it? And if you looked at what was on offer and passed on it, what would have made it an essential read for you? Was it too esoteric? Too rarified?

And as an aside, is it actually possible to make a success of a new niche magazine when the big distributors like WH Smith assume the market is covered when they stock "Motor Sport"? Especially when Haymarket tell them that it is....

**Craig** · 24 Jul 2001, 09:38 (Ref:120994)

I fear maybe it's not, Tim. But if I were going to try, i'd get in contact with as many people in the sport as I could and offer them an incentive to promote the thing - websites, drivers who could run logos on their cars, etc., maybe advertise in raceday programs - just to get word out on the street.

I have to confess that i've never heard of this publication, let alone seen a copy - seems to me that maybe he hasn't done his job right...

**Peter Mallett** · 24 Jul 2001, 09:38 (Ref:120995)

Tim,

Take a look at our forum here. You'll struggle to find anything about historic racing, but there's loads of racing history. That may give you the answer.

Everybody knows about Fangio but not many people know allen Lloyd or Martin Stretton. That's what Haymarket have done with Motorsport. They tend to leave race reports to the classic car mags.

Hence the demise of HMR. BTW, don't think I ever saw it on the newstands.

**Craig** · 24 Jul 2001, 09:41 (Ref:120996)

Maybe this type of publication is an ideal candiadte to be run as a website ? Just a thought.

**Peter Mallett** · 24 Jul 2001, 09:45 (Ref:120999)

Quote:

Originally posted by Craig Antill
Maybe this type of publication is an ideal candiadte to be run as a website ? Just a thought.

Now there's an idea.

Yimkin · 24 Jul 2001, 12:04 (Ref:121075)

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Mallett

Now there's an idea.

It was run as a website prior to becoming a printed version, I believe - but never got past the December 99 issue (presumably because that's when it moved to magazine format)

See

http://www.racecar.co.uk/hmrn/index.html

For info. We were subscribers from the start, although it was bl**dy difficult to find out how to subscribe.....

Its a shame that WHSmiths has so much power in the marketplace. As for content, I'd say only about 30-40% was reports of historic races, the rest was racing history, and very well written too.

**Peter Mallett** · 24 Jul 2001, 12:17 (Ref:121081)

The original mag was a type of A4 printed flyer. I first came across it in 1990. I believe I even contributed at one time, but don't quote me.

However the real point is that although it may well have loads of historic info and well written, don't we have books for that sort of thing?

I'm not sure but the immediacy of Historic racing seems to be lost on people. I sometimes think that the majority of enthusiasts would rather rake over old times rthan rejoice in the chance to see the older cars racing.

And that's my point about this forum. We spend ages taliking about the "late greats" but no time at all on the world of Historic Racing. Its a sign of the times I guess.

Vitesse · 24 Jul 2001, 12:26 (Ref:121086)

Unfortunately, this is just another example of a failed magazine - the news trade in the UK is littered with them, partly because of the antiquated way the trade is run by three monopolistic wholesalers: WH Smith, Menzies and Surridge Dawson. They carve up the country between themselves, allocate themselves exclusive territories and discourage competition - if your local newsagent is not satisfied with the service he gets from (say) Smiths, he can't tell them to get lost, because no-one else can or will supply him: not much incentive there for the wholesaler to offer a decent service!!!

Having said that, I don't think Graham Gauld can have done much of a job in selling the mag in to the wholesalers - I deal with one of two Surridge Dawson warehouses in Bristol, which between them cover a swathe of the country from Cheltenham to Bournemouth and from Swindon to North Devon and neither of them stocked the mag, nor could they supply it!!

SNH · 24 Jul 2001, 12:27 (Ref:121087)

It is extremely hard/impossible to set up a new niche magazine. This is the reason that we put theGrid on the Net. Even with it so easy for people to send us copy, a lot of club/national racers can't be bothered. We get complaints saying 'why don't you cover me?'.....
If anyone wants to help, I'd be happy to set up a historical race site....

Yimkin · 24 Jul 2001, 13:03 (Ref:121102)

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Mallett

However the real point is that although it may well have loads of historic info and well written, don't we have books for that sort of thing?

I'm not sure but the immediacy of Historic racing seems to be lost on people. I sometimes think that the majority of enthusiasts would rather rake over old times rthan rejoice in the chance to see the older cars racing.

And that's my point about this forum. We spend ages taliking about the "late greats" but no time at all on the world of Historic Racing. Its a sign of the times I guess.

True enough, but following the books logic we'd also lose Motorsport magazine as well!

I agree entirely about the race reporting, however. In fact HMRN only really covered the 'blue riband' races such as Goodwood, Monaco, Laguna Seca etc. I want to see reports from HRSR, CSCC, HSCC meetings etc. And where do I find them? In Autosport - an ostensibly 'modern' mag! This is, of course, no bad thing, as it helps to open up historic motorsport to a wider audience, but maybe its time that Motorsport took such feelings on board and devoted a bit more space to 'modern historic' motorsport - after all most of their advertising revenue (and a consideable amount of their subscription) comes from those actively engaged in it (and its nice to see your name in the comics on occasion!)

Kpy · 24 Jul 2001, 18:06 (Ref:121184)

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
The original mag was a type of A4 printed flyer. I first came across it in 1990. I believe I even contributed at one time, but don't quote me.

Don't think it was the same mag. Peter. This one managed four, supposedly bimonthly, issues before folding. It was not so much about current historic racing (although it managed a page and four 'photos on the Shell 2000 Ferrari Maserati Challenge in the February/March issue) as featuring the history of the sport as Motor Sport tries to.

However the real point is that although it may well have loads of historic info and well written, don't we have books for that sort of thing?

I may be dense, but are books and magazines mutually exclusive ?

I'm not sure but the immediacy of Historic racing seems to be lost on people. I sometimes think that the majority of enthusiasts would rather rake over old times rthan rejoice in the chance to see the older cars racing.

There are two separate points here - enthusiasts do like to rake over old times. Without the old times there'd be no historic cars. However people tend to regard historic racing as a participatory sport, for spectators as well as competitors. I pop up to Montlhéry whenever there's racing there and to other circuits within driving distance where historic cars are raced - Le Mans (shame about the Bugatti circuit), Dijon, Spa, Chimay ...... I go to the nostalgia meetings at Dieppe and Rouen-les-Essarts.
I love to chat with the owners and drivers and to soak up the atmosphere, but I don't expect to read reports on those meetings in a magazine and I wouldn't buy one if it existed. When I made my own little effort in historic racing many years ago it was fun to see my name in the comics, but I didn't even expect my girlfriend to read it, let alone anyone else.

You make a point about people knowing about Fangio, but not Lloyd or Stretton. Well Fangio was a multiple world champion.

And that's my point about this forum. We spend ages taliking about the "late greats" but no time at all on the world of Historic Racing. Its a sign of the times I guess.

I've yet to see much chat about current historic racing, but I'll be delighted to read any such thread and to join in if I can. Maybe after the 'ring Oldtimer or the Goodwood revival ?

The fact about HMR is that it was badly managed. It was published in the USA, edited in France, designed in Hong Kong, printed in the UK and its advertising agents were in the UK too. It gathered virtually no advertising, so needed a healthy readership or a fair amount of funding until the readership and advertising built up.
Oddly I found my first and only copy in W H Smith, admittedly in the rue de Rivoli in Paris. You don't expect a tiny circulation magazine from Grand Rapids Michigan to be on a British wholesaler's distribution list without some justification. I'm still amazed it got as far as Paris.
Shame because it had some good articles, though the pictures were of variable quality.

I just pray that Automobile Historique goes from strength to strength. They carry virtually no advertising, but they assure me their circulation is 20,000. It is the epitome of what a magazine on the subject should be. And the main shareholder is a racer of historic cars - Flavien Marçais won his race at the Pau historic meeting in the 1953 Cooper Bristol MK11 built for Horace Gould, hence a long report in the current issue. It's F Marçais' grandfather's archive that provides much of the source material for the magazine.
Sorry to wax so lyrical for so long but vive Automobile Historique !!

**Peter Mallett** · 25 Jul 2001, 05:45 (Ref:121407)

Quote:

Originally posted by Kpy

I've yet to see much chat about current historic racing, but I'll be delighted to read any such thread and to join in if I can. Maybe after the 'ring Oldtimer or the Goodwood revival ?

And there you have the problem. People will go to the Goodwood revival and the Oldtimer etc. Forgetting entirely that these cars race week in/week out. Its only the "elitist" events which get noticed and the reason is because the drivers from a different era are there. We'll read no end of posts about "how I bumped into/shook hands or fell over in front of, Sir Stirling (Great bloke BTW) but what about the races themselves?

And what about talking about the owners of the cars? How they prepared them and what technical changes they can make to meet the regs? We need some posters talikang about these things as well.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kpy

The fact about HMR is that it was badly managed. It was published in the USA, edited in France, designed in Hong Kong, printed in the UK and its advertising agents were in the UK too. It gathered virtually no advertising, so needed a healthy readership or a fair amount of funding until the readership and advertising built up.
Oddly I found my first and only copy in W H Smith, admittedly in the rue de Rivoli in Paris. You don't expect a tiny circulation magazine from Grand Rapids Michigan to be on a British wholesaler's distribution list without some justification. I'm still amazed it got as far as Paris.
Shame because it had some good articles, though the pictures were of variable quality.

Hmm. It sounds just like the mag I mentioned only later in its lifetime. I stil say that there is very little to add to what the books already provide. The magazines which are successful tend to give us a sweetener which then sends us of to our books for references.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kpy I just pray that Automobile Historique goes from strength to strength. They carry virtually no advertising, but they assure me their circulation is 20,000. It is the epitome of what a magazine on the subject should be. And the main shareholder is a racer of historic cars - Flavien Marçais won his race at the Pau historic meeting in the 1953 Cooper Bristol MK11 built for Horace Gould, hence a long report in the current issue. It's F Marçais' grandfather's archive that provides much of the source material for the magazine.
Sorry to wax so lyrical for so long but vive Automobile Historique !!

Personally I'm not familiar with the magazine but if it is good then let's hope it continues. I still want to see more about current historic racing though.

SNH · 26 Jul 2001, 22:16 (Ref:122294)

send some stukk to http://www.thegrid.co.uk
the reason we set it up was to cover national & club motor racing.

**Peter Mallett** · 27 Jul 2001, 09:19 (Ref:122488)

Quote:

Originally posted by SNH
send some stukk to http://www.thegrid.co.uk
the reason we set it up was to cover national & club motor racing.

Yes Steve. But the point is that I see no discussions here about Rockingham, the HSCC or any of the equivalents from other countries. I do see (and learn a lot from them BTW) posts about racing from the history books. A good one is the post about Chris Amon. My point is that things are happening now. The six wheeled Tyrrel is making waves in TGP. Its going better now than it was in '76. How can that be? Why aren't there people discussing it here?

Kpy · 27 Jul 2001, 09:55 (Ref:122495)

Three points Peter:

1. There are magazines that cover your interest - Automobile Historique covers contempory historic racing. Autosport Club section has good coverage. On-line there's Bolide. But generally the races are covered by monthly magazines which are way out of date on publication. Used to be the same with Motor Sport in the '50s and '60s.

2. I've said this before - if you think there's some thing worth discussing, then post it. Maybe I or someone else will respond. But don't forget - this is a world-wide forum; we can't all be at Silverstone or Thruxton every weekend.

3. I do post when I'm off to Montlhéry or wherever, and generally I get zero response.

Forty five years ago I got myself into a load of trouble with racers of historic stuff, by suggesting that they weren't Fangio etc. Just about then I became friends with Willy Green and my attidude changed - he's a maestro.

So post away Peter and maybe you'll get a response. It's down to you. But no-one will do it for you.

**Peter Mallett** · 27 Jul 2001, 11:12 (Ref:122536)

I am aware that there are loads of magazines which cover the subject but this is a discussion forum and as such we don't discuss it.

The reason for my dismay is that I've been asked if it would be worth splitting Historic Racing away from this forum. I don't believe it is because I think it goes hand in hand with Racing History.

Other questions spring to mind. Where is the 250F that Fangio used in the '57 German GP? If it is owned by a racer, what is it doing at the moment. You see the topics do run together.

I'm not worried whether the races are at Thruxton or Laguna Seca. So I fail to see your point there Kpy. But the differences in regulations would make a topic of their own don't you think?

I would love to post about historic racing but geographically its not possible for me to attend any events and normally if it is, I'm racing my car anyway.

I remember Willy driving a Lister Knobbly Jaguar at Brands. In fell in love with the car and to me its much better than the D Type. But they weren't as successful. Why? And why are they now much more competitive?

So there are some questions. Maybe someone could start a topic for each. As the co-moderator I don't want to push people in any direction.

Kpy · 27 Jul 2001, 14:22 (Ref:122616)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter Mallett
[B]I am aware that there are loads of magazines which cover the subject but this is a discussion forum and as such we don't discuss it.]/B]

Well fine, but as Sam Goldwin once said - Include me out.

Good luck with the Capri racing.

Kpy · 27 Jul 2001, 14:47 (Ref:122628)

Quote:

Originally posted by TimD
I've heard a nasty rumour that Historic Motor Racing magazine is no more.

We don't discuss it

**Peter Mallett** · 28 Jul 2001, 06:18 (Ref:122871)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kpy
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter Mallett
[B]I am aware that there are loads of magazines which cover the subject but this is a discussion forum and as such we don't discuss it.]/B]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kpy
Well fine, but as Sam Goldwin once said - Include me out.

Sorry you feel that way but at least we can still discuss the history with you.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kpy
Good luck with the Capri racing.

None likely this year.

Next year my leave schedule will be planned around the race calendar. Might even have an additional toy to play with.

Barrie Hobkirk · 2 Sep 2002, 02:33 (Ref:370930)

Peter Mallett,
Just signed on. A year ago, you asked about the 250F that Fangio used to win the 1957 German GP at the Nurburgring.
That was chassis 2529. It is currently owned by Hartmut Ibing of Germany. He runs the car every once in a while (this years Goodwood FoS)and also lets others run it to (Willie Green June track day at Donington).
Cheers,
Barrie

zefarelly · 2 Sep 2002, 14:07 (Ref:371272)

re relevance . . . Im trying to build/restore a fairly humble car to race, for several reasons, the MK1 Cortina is my fave car, to build a GT and race prepare it is about all I could afford to do, and I enjoy it all, from welding up rotten chassis rails to going to historic events, at the moment either helping out or just specatating.

If I could take my own car to events and compete, as well as enjoy all the other aspects, it would be fantastic.

tracing the history has not been so easy, GT's wherent raced that much (as opposed to the LOtus) so not much info seems to ba available, although I have managed to settle on a spec for the car which I can afford . . .how original it is I have no idea though, al I want is to get on a track some day and get to the finish without making a complete tit of myself!

the only publications I'm aware of which touch this subject are motorsport, classic Ford and various classic car mags have brief articles, but usually as has been said here, just the big boys and big cars.

simon drabble · 2 Sep 2002, 19:56 (Ref:371551)

I have never heard of this magazine so i wont miss it! However if it was trying to give more in depth reports on current historic racing and the cars out on the circuit then i am sorry to hear of its demise! i race against some fairly well known cars and names but sadlly due to budget constraints I am unlikely to be up at the pointy end (although i have had a class win!) I would love to read more than a 2 or 3 liner on mine and other historic races (which is all Autosport do as one column will cover a whole meting). Why not let such a magazine have race reports on the european historic racing scene. It sounds to me that if someone orgainised it properly it culd be great magazine so all you budding publishers out there get on with it! but make sure its in English!!

David McKinney · 9 Sep 2002, 07:41 (Ref:376131)

Simon
The magazine you need is Historic Motor Racing News, a subscriber-only monthly newsletter which does just what you ask. Contact them at hmrn@dial.pipex.com

simon drabble · 9 Sep 2002, 10:33 (Ref:376269)

i do get that and it is good. but it could cover a lot more!

**Peter Mallett** · 9 Sep 2002, 11:32 (Ref:376328)

Quote:

Originally posted by zefarelly
.........................................
the only publications I'm aware of which touch this subject are motorsport, classic Ford .......................

I get Classic Ford occasionally. It's ok but I find it tends towards the big engine in small car syndrome. Like this month somebody has shoved a Cosworth turbo into a mk11 Cotina estate. It's fun and all well and good but as to historic interest? I like Classic Ford, just don't see it as helping in this context.

But if there was a mag which ran historical info concerning the build of historic touring cars it would get my vote. I'd love to find an in depth build spec for the group 2 Cologne Capri for instance.

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