Track Worker Killed at Daytona

[Tim Falce]

Like the man before me said, it's okay when F1 does it?

IMO, no. but as for the F1 races in question, the people weren't laying on the track.

[JimW]

As for stopping an event (and I'm not referring to this incident at all - too little knowledge of local circumstances or the detail of what happened) I'm not convinced that stopping is always the best thing to do.

The last thing those actually dealing with an incident usually need is more people. Also if you do need access to/from the venue, this is likely to be better preserved if things are kept going. Of course if the event running interferes with the provision of any needed support, then it stops.

There was a good example at a UK circuit some years ago where a car went into a spectator area causing a number of casualties. It was in the vicinity of a major spectator access point and stopping things would have made ambulance/helicopter etc. access much worse. No trackside access was required so the race continued.

Similar considerations have applied in the past on stage rallies.

Clearly we don't want to show disrespect but in the actual management of an incident there is often something to be said for keeping an event running.

Regards

Jim

[EvilPumpkin]

I think it depends on the position of the incident Jim. If you are dealing with an incident physically on the circuit that has occurred under full circuit yellows - an indication that the yellows are not offering protection - then surely it would have to be safer to stop the session?

[JimW]

I did say that I wasn't commenting about the specific case. And

Of course if the event running interferes with the provision of any needed support, then it stops.

I don't have any experience of running under full course yellows (or ovals) at all, so I'll duck this one.

But Scutineer78 said

Once race control had all the information, they immediately did red flag the race.

Regards

Jim

[EvilPumpkin]

Sorry Jim - I'm just looking at scenarios. I should have said "under yellows" rather than full course yellows which is not a usual experience for us. However, running a sector under yellows is something that is done quite often and we've had many discussions about conduct going through yellow areas so hence my question.

[JimW]

I see what you mean. Personally I have played it both ways. It depends on how I perceive the drivers are responding to the situation. If the speeds/conduct seems OK to me (i.e. they don't scare me ) I can live with it. I'm talking about having a unit parked appropriately and also bearing in mind the location of the incident.

Equally there are times when I have had to ask for the session to be stopped because I was not happy. (Only on two occasions did Race Control object to this. Asking for another rescue unit, fire tender and ambulance soon removed their doubts. )

My request would not normally be based on the condition of the casualty. I am quite serious about being keen to have as few people around an incident as can be arranged. And yes, that does apply to (excess) rescue crew, (excess) doctors and p/m, senior officials, and team members (especially). Course marshals are usually fine and can be helpful in (quite) large numbers. The best way of keeping the numbers down is for racing to continue.

Regards

Jim

[EvilPumpkin]

Yes, the incredible growing crowd phenomenon is one that gets mentioned in our own training here too! We have this great photo montage of an incident which goes from 2 marshals, 2 cars and 1 casualty & a walking to about a zillion people, very few of whom seem to be doing anything but getting underfoot. I've experienced one or two myself - the worst being a kart incident that happened right in front of the pit lane. Unfortunately, the pit lane was right in front of the bar which was filled with slighly inebriated spectators.....most of whom flooded into the pitlane and over the wall onto the circuit.

The main reason I ask is that a lot of the time, the initial decision on whether to ask for a session stop lies with whoever is running the post. Unless the track is blocked, that decision has to be based on the ability of the marshals and rescue crew to do their jobs while racing continues, so I'm always interested in rescue viewpoints on this one.

[JimW]

Originally posted by EvilPumpkin
Yes, the incredible growing crowd phenomenon is one that gets mentioned in our own training here too! We have this great photo montage of an incident which goes from 2 marshals, 2 cars and 1 casualty & a walking to about a zillion people, very few of whom seem to be doing anything but getting underfoot. . . .

My personal record at an incident was eleven doctors. (For two significant and one shaken, casualties) :confused:

Fortunately one of the doctors took seven others aside and held an impromptu seminar leaving us to get on with the three. (Three rescue units, three fire appliances and 50% of the southern Scottish complement of ambulances (i.e. one with only one crewman) and several event senior officials appeared.) The sole representative of the constabulary was eventually coerced into doing some traffic control!

But that was an RTA just behind Stage Start.

Jim

[Garry Holmes]

AMOC last year at Mallory featured a stratline shunt with 2 cars stuck in the pit entrance. The amount of people around was amazing, we had to stop the race because there were so many people.

The particularly nasty & firey GT shunt that was shown at the recent trainign day featured a speccy climbing over the debris fence !!!!

I could go on, but I have to agree with Jim, some times fewer people is better. One of the skills that I learnt when I started but doesn't seem to apply now is not only when to go & assist but when NOT to go. Admitedly when its you & the dog you don't have much choice.

[Garry Holmes]

Also its where people come from that also never fails to amze me. One of the problems, especially rallies with people using scanners.

[Sheila M]

Originally posted by Garry Holmes
AMOC last year at Mallory featured a stratline shunt with 2 cars stuck in the pit entrance. The amount of people around was amazing, we had to stop the race because there were so many people.

The particularly nasty & firey GT shunt that was shown at the recent trainign day featured a speccy climbing over the debris fence !!!!

I could go on, but I have to agree with Jim, some times fewer people is better. One of the skills that I learnt when I started but doesn't seem to apply now is not only when to go & assist but when NOT to go. Admitedly when its you & the dog you don't have much choice.

One of the problems I am trying to address in my guidance notes for pit marshals is to keep people out of the way of incidents (ourselves included) unless we are asked to assist. Personally I am all for clearing teams etc out of the way and at Mallory I have even been known to clear the assembly area as well.