Blue Flags

[nippy]

Hi i'm getting pretty fed up of backmarkers halting my race and holding me up. Why is there no penalty when novices dont obey flag signals because in my view if they cant then they shouldn't have a liecence.
I respect that they are new to the sport and that we need to do the work as the people lapping them, but even if you are alongside them they don't back off they try and out-brake you. I was under the impression it was
Blue Flag Staionairy: Quicker kart closing
Blue Flag Waved: Quicker kart trying to pass.
Help

[sss]

good job you were so fast when you started and were never a back marker.

why dont you as an 'experienced' expert chat with them in the paddock and offer pointers to become quicker instead

[Alan Green]

Until you get to levels in the sport where there are set penalties for ignoring the blue flags (ie let the guy though after three waved blues in F1), the general advice (certainly for cars) is that a stationary blue flag means a faster car is approaching you, a waved blue means a faster car is going to attempt to overtake you very soon. It does not mean "back off or get out of the way, leader coming through". In car terms, I always learned it as, if you were being blue flagged look in your mirrors, and if it was waved look in your mirrors NOW.

If there was a case of a driver acting in disregard of the blue flags (or any instruction/warning), and carrying on their own way, it would be upto the clerk (via his observers) to warn the driver with a black/white diagonal flag, followed by a black flag if it didn't improve.

That's my interrpetation anyway.

[Steve Tarrant]

Alan, your interpretation is quite right. It doesn't matter which discipline the flag is being used at, unless the rules for that championship state you have an immediate requirement to move over, the showing of the blue flag is ADVISORY! It is also the responsibility of the overtaking vehicle to find their way past in a safe and proper manner.

But equally if the "faster" vehicle feels they are deliberately being held up by a slower competitor who is not responding to the signals, his response should be to report this to the Clerk of Course, for him and him alone to discuss the errors with the slower driver.

Too often, steamed up drivers take the law into their own hands, go wading up to the "slower" driver and intimidate them. That achieves nothing, as all this does is get the back up of the newer driver, and then you have a situation simmering under the surface which can be a potential timebomb.


Steve

[MikeM]

On the other hand, how many front runners expect the car being lapped to just "disappear" because they're behind them?

[mark_l]

It is to the driver to overtake the car in front. This principle is sadly lacking in higher formula.

Imagine you are the leader and you are being caught by a faster car, would you want to let the other car through?

[EvilPumpkin]

Ditto everything that Steve said.

Nippy if you don't want to race with less experienced competitors, then it's up to you to find a racing class where you feel the calibre meets your high standards.

Perhaps you need to work on your overtaking skills if you really cannot get past such slow back markers.

[Mark Mitchell]

Ditto!

[nippy]

Originally posted by sss
good job you were so fast when you started and were never a back marker.

why dont you as an 'experienced' expert chat with them in the paddock and offer pointers to become quicker instead

Actually i never was a backmarker as i was one of the first in the class as the club was new. 11 of us took our a.r.k.s. test and the following week we were racing that is how that class started in our club. Although i have been laped and when i got lapped i moved out of the way, another thing when you tell them that they should have backed off they say ohh yeah i know i wont do it again and lo and behold they do.
Even the coc says that novices should obey the flags and let the leaders through quickly and it takes an eternity.
Why do you have to think im being harsh it's a fact and i sympathise but that is why you have to PASS!! you a.r.k.s. test before you can race.

[nippy]

I give up!!! No wonder no one posts on this thread you attack everyone. I bet if i was a backmarker saying the fast lads shout at me you'd say "ahhh well you should get out of the way"
then
"If you don't like it stop racing"
then
" It's probably because your holding them up and they want to get on"

You attack absoloutly everyone...... Why????

[ascarracinguk]

excuse me....thats no way to treat people who give up their weekends to help you out and possibly one day to save your life.....we do what we can but if they dont obey we cant do much more..why dont you talk to the head of the club and alter the regs to make sure you can pass...

...personally i think lapping back markers is part of the racing art....it can help you or hurt you...you will be in both situations in your racing career so put up with it and learn how to pass rather than coming on here and complaining

[Hog]

Nippy - put your toys back in the pram and move on.

Perhaps you should spend a day on the bank - you may understand then how difficult it is to even get some drivers to see the flag signals in the first place.

A little less arrogance will earn you a great deal more respect on this forum.

[Mark Mitchell]

Nippy,

We seem to have gone down this avenue previously in a different thread!

At the risk of coming in for a torrent of abuse, I would suggest that you re-read ALL of the regulations that apply to your aspect of motorsport.

You mention that CofC says that Novices should obey all flag signals - quite right! However blue flag signals do not mean that a competitor has to move aside to let a quicker competitor pass. As previously mentioned, this flag simply informs a competitor that someone else is approaching from behind, usually at a faster speed.
The sporting drivers will, if in practice and not on a flying lap themselves, usually make room for the quicker driver. In the race, the backmarker when shown a blue will again normally do the same.
Unless it's obvious that the slower competitor is deliberately baulking the quicker driver, then there really is nothing than can or should be done about it!
I agree that some drivers are not very good at looking in their mirrors and making your pass easy, but as far as the regs go, they are not in breach of them!

[Adam43]

Your quicker, overtake them!

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by observer
I agree that some drivers are not very good at looking in their mirrors and making your pass easy, but as far as the regs go, they are not in breach of them!

The lack of mirrors on karts must make it even more difficult for a driver to know what's going on around him.

[Maisie]

Yes, but if he had mirrors he'd never get his helmet in the kart

[Tim Falce]

nippy,
if you're so quick that you can come up to lap the slow people, why do find it so difficult to get past them?

[motorsportmarshal61]

nippy
if u dont like back markers and carnt overtake them dont race then

[nippy]

post deleted

Personal attacks will not be tolerated, final warning - Wrex

[Mackmot]

Nippy asked a reasonable question in the wrong forum and you lot attacked him. Im with him on this one.

However Nippy watch your temper you wont make any friends by swearing at them and you will soon get banned.

Back on to Nippy's question though. He is clearly disapointed that drivers disobey the blue flags and waste his testing and race time. How can this be resolved, maybe by training the marshals better. Dont take this the wrong way you lot. Most of you are professionals and are part of respected clubs but at many kart tests and races it is just drivers dads lending a hand. Maybe the BMMC should look into karting a bit more to see if they can help. There are many thousands of karters who need your help.

[garcon]

There's a few takes on this from a racing etiquette point of view, and I've seen it from most sides - as part of a racing team, on the bank, and as a driver on track days (both passing and being passed).

At the amateur level, without delving too deeply into particulars of rules and regs of different series, the onus is on the quicker car/kart to find his way around the back marker. The blue flag warns the back marker that he is about to be lapped, and in my experience this means the back marker should stay on his line while the quicker car passes him. This is primarily to ensure well meaning novices don't move "out of the way" and inadvertently send the quicker car into the kitty litter. On the face of it, or in theory at least, that keeps it simple.

But I do agree with one point nippy made - although it's never a good idea to actually back off on the racing line (especially with a quicker car behind you), it isn't exactly playing the game for a back marker to try and out-brake someone who's lapping him into the next turn.

There's a certain degree of give and take. I don't think nippy was having a go at marshals to begin with - after all, a marshal can only wave the blue flag, it's the back marker who has to see it. The only way to improve things is to speak to the COC, who should act if the series rules are not being followed - or get someone to raise it at the next pre-race drivers' briefing? (Whatever you do, don't raise it yourself - that's just asking to be punted off... ).

[johnw]

Agree Mackmot that the question was reasonable. The way in which it was asked was not, and presumably generated the strong response.

Originally posted by nippy
.... Why is there no penalty when novices dont obey flag signals because in my view if they cant then they shouldn't have a liecence.

We know (if we read our regs) that there is no penalty for ignoring a blue flag. So the quick answer to Nippys' question is is "because the regs do not impose one."
Therefore Nippy's view that this should disqualify people from holding a license is inflamatory.

I think that you get what you give, so I don't agree with you that the response is inappropriate wrong forum or not.

[blueflagger]

I do agree that you all have been a bit harsh on Nippy instead of just answering his question. Don't bait.

The US follows the same basic rules and marshals here will report a driver who seems to be oblivious to blue flags or drivers who appear to deliberately block faster drivers, especially if it helps a faster teammate. Ultimately though, the blue flag is advisory to the passee only. It doesn't mean "faster car, you can pass now" and it is up to the faster driver to get around the backmarker safely.

Stewards will have a "chat" with drivers who are called for not watching their mirrors. If it appears blatant, the operating steward may have him black flagged. Keep in mind that this is easier for us to do with our every-station-on-line communication system.

I was Starter at an ice race where I was almost killed by one of those faster drivers who saw me give the blue to the slow car and then tried to pass - harder on ice than on pavement, believe-you-me. The first car couldn't change his line easily due to ruts in the track, and the second car launched off the bank when he tried to duck inside. I could have spit on the bottom of the car as it went sailing past my head. I'll never forget the view of his exhaust.

The fast driver got out of his broken car yelling at me to black flag the slow driver for not "obeying" the blue flag. The steward (CotC to you) tossed him out on his a**e. Thank heavens he did, I was ready to do damage to that guy.

[Stephen Green]

Wrex, thanks for intervening in my absense.

To everyone else, please remember basic forum rules, attack the post and not the poster.

Beware, I have the deleting and banning stick in hand this morning!

[StephenRae]

For what its worth I don't think there is anything wrong with the blue flag regs, or the way they are applied.
Catching a backmarker when racing for position can be turned to your advantage as often as not. My advice is to go past there and then however that may put you off line, you've always got a couple of corners to work out where this will happen. Usually you are going so much quicker it's not a problem. During practice if baulked you've blown the lap anyway.
I understand the reactions in this thread, we are all rightfully protective of our place in the racing scheme of things. I think Nippy is talking hypothetically, assuming that he will be the quickest....unless he is willing to show us his racing CV I think his opinions should be taken with a pinch of salt!