F5000 at HSCC

[Andrew Kitson]

[QUOTE=PaulSands]They sounded great and the Brands GP circuit was absolutely what they were made for
QUOTE]
Indeed, F5000 in Europe being the brainchild of Brands Hatch's John Webb back in 1969.
A field of F5000s like that were regularly seen at Mallory too back in those days. Hard to imagine now, but still have great memories of 20 of them funnelling through Shaws, in the days when the hairpin had no run-off whatsoever!

[allenbrown]

John - those were my comments, not Simon's. Simon didn't say what he thought of "said driver" and I wouldn't have quoted him even if he had.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

John - those were my comments, not Simon's. Simon didn't say what he thought of "said driver" and I wouldn't have quoted him even if he had.

Allen, I rather guessed that might be the case and I am sorry that by linking two statements in my first sentence, I may have indicated otherwise.

[Eddy V]

That driver has been doing that for years. I guess xhe just enjoys it. The driving that is. Did the same thing again at Zolder a few weeks ago, but we got used to it (lots of blue flaggin').
The other drivers even take "other racing lines" to overtake the car. But in the rain, this becomes another matter.

[jamesl]

The Lyon's have done more for F5000 in recent times than anyone. They go above and beyond the call to help F5000 flourish, which in my book is a good thing. This armchair anoraks who criticise from the sidelines should realise that without people at the back of the grid the hadfield's of this world will have no one to beat. Besides at all the drivers meetings I've been to the clerk of the course spells it out for slower cars to use their mirrors and hold their lines and that its up to the hadfields of this world to use their steering wheels to go around them and take control. This works well, even in powerful machinery, and when in its been wet. In my experience Judy knows this more than anyone and she sticks to it. While eveyone should have an opinion I think its wrong for the armchair brigade to critise, at least she's out their supporting the series and having ago.

[Andrew Kitson]

James there is absolutely no doubting the wonderful contribution that both Frank and Judy have made to the historic scene in general, especially F5000 as you say. Without their commitment in taking their cars down under for the past two winters and organising the return visit of the NZ drivers we would not be raving about this F5000 revival. Personally I would love to see Tony Trimmer back out in his old car as raced under John Jordan's ownership, that being Frank's T332, and have Frank in his M18. I know both Frank and Judy, great people but with all respect to her would like to see the car driven hard which Frank is more than capable of. Better still get Redman back in it as in 1971!

[johnh875]

Thanks Ian

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by jamesl

The Lyon's have done more for F5000 in recent times than anyone. They go above and beyond the call to help F5000 flourish, which in my book is a good thing. This armchair anoraks who criticise from the sidelines should realise that without people at the back of the grid the hadfield's of this world will have no one to beat. Besides at all the drivers meetings I've been to the clerk of the course spells it out for slower cars to use their mirrors and hold their lines and that its up to the hadfields of this world to use their steering wheels to go around them and take control. This works well, even in powerful machinery, and when in its been wet. In my experience Judy knows this more than anyone and she sticks to it. While eveyone should have an opinion I think its wrong for the armchair brigade to critise, at least she's out their supporting the series and having ago.

Well James, as someone who has attended over 150 race meetings at different levels, in all conditions, for over 40 years, I feel entitled to offer my 'armchair' opinion. I don't need to be told that to have winners like Hadfield you have to have losers (ie, the rest of the field) and you are completely missing the point. We are not talking about someone simply at the back of the grid here and I suggest you read my posts and those of one or two others again to see the issue I am trying to address.

I agree, absolutely, that the Lyons (now that we have named names, which I studiously tried to avoid, by the way) are stalwarts of the F5000 scene and we owe them much for the efforts that their enthusiasm and organisational skills have generated. This is not, and never has been an attack on these achievements which I wholeheartedly applaud. However, none of this invalidates my point which I will not repeat again, since it should be clear to anyone who has read my posts properly. I remain totally unrepentant.

[Stephen Green]

Very well said John I agree with your comments wholeheartedly. I also agree its a shame someone decided to put a name to the person when it wasn't necessary.

[Ian Sowman]

It wasn't as if it was a name that couldn't easily have been found out though Stephen (as I did to confirm my suspicions).

[Dan Rear]

Whats the problem with naming names, we all know who we're talking about and the fantastic things the Lyons have done for F5000 and Historics in general for a long-time now. A brilliant couple, and I've never met them !! However, James apart we all agree with John's comments, so why the big issue on 'naming'.

Once the lawyers get involved with 10/10ths, I'm off...

[Ian Sowman]

It isn't as if anything legally dubious has been said, is it? There is far worse said about many of the Formula 1 drivers, among others!

[zefarelly]

on a lighter note, does anyone know what caused a red flag in the HRSR race ( same thing happened last year (shock horror!)

[Andrew Kitson]

As I said, I have known Frank and Judy a number of years now, they are a great couple as is their young son. What they have done if fantastic.

But what we are debating is a seperate issue, the speed differential at Brands when Judy was on track. As James has pointed out from experience at CoC meetings, the drivers are told about slow traffic and holding lines etc.
If the drivers are happy (and the CoC) then so be it. I was not at Brands, but have seen plenty of races in which Judy has taken part. She does have fun but her pace is nothing like cars in a similar catagory - this is the question, is it safe in conditions as they were at Brands (remember Pironi Hockenheim '82)? But if the other drivers are happy and the CoC thinks it is safe we must accept it. We are not afterall the ones risking anything.

[Stephen Green]

I just felt the thread was going nicely without specific names being mentioned. Nothing sinister or of a legal nature.

[Stephen Green]

Originally Posted by Andrew Kitson

As I said, I have known Frank and Judy a number of years now, they are a great couple as is their young son. What they have done if fantastic.

But what we are debating is a seperate issue, the speed differential at Brands when Judy was on track. As James has pointed out from experience at CoC meetings, the drivers are told about slow traffic and holding lines etc.
If the drivers are happy (and the CoC) then so be it. I was not at Brands, but have seen plenty of races in which Judy has taken part. She does have fun but her pace is nothing like cars in a similar catagory - this is the question, is it safe in conditions as they were at Brands (remember Pironi Hockenheim '82)? But if the other drivers are happy and the CoC thinks it is safe we must accept it. We are not afterall the ones risking anything.

Andrew,

I think that in the conditions that prevailed on Sunday, it was not safe. The amount of spray being thrown up by the faster cars was enormous and it even made it difficult to see approaching cars from my vantage point at the side of the track. Had the conditions been dry then I would not have voiced my concern.

It comes down to your individual view I guess, but I believe safety should come before any other factor, and in my opinion, it was not safe on Sunday.

[John Turner]

Thank you to all those who have supported my comments. My reasons for not naming names was nothing to do with legal reasons; I just wanted to raise an issue which concerned me, with sensitivity, bearing in mind that this is a public forum. I repeat, this is nothing personal, and my concern is equally for Judy as the other drivers. Since I seem to have stirred up something and clearly it has registered with a number of people, I do not propose to comment further on this issue. I'm sorry if I have unintentionally hijacked a thread intended as a celebration of the wonderful presence of F5000 cars and it was truly a inspiring sight. Incidentally, I thought Frank Lyons himself drove a superb race coming through from mid pack to a top six finish. Altogether, it was a lovely meeting which the weather did its best, but ultimately failed, to dampen.

[Stephen Green]

I agree. Congratulations to the HSCC for organising such a wonderful and nostalgic meeting!

[EliSolomon]

What a sensational weekend it was, weather notwithstanding. Fortunately it did clear for the F5000 race though parking oneself by one of the poles at Druids meant lugging around an extra 5kg of mud and clay as part of the bargain. Did get some very good shots at both Druids and Halewood, particularly when the E-type spun (twice at the same spot).

Allen, good to have finally met you. I'm sure you would have had a chance to talk to all the F5000 drivers and dug up more interesting material. Kerry's #18 Lola T142 must rank as one of the fastest rebuilds of an F5000 ever - from the bare frame that existed at Invercargill in February to the time Barry Leitch did some laps at Terrible Tonga before it was shipped off with the rest of the cars.

Unrelated to F5000......There was gentleman that I had invited over during the weekdn that some of you would know from the 1000km Nurburgring 1968 race. David Sewell assisted John Green at Daren Cars in the late 60s. John passed away a short while ago and David has been helping me with the Daren Mk1 Prototype that raced at the Ring in 68 (3rd in class till a fire interrupted progress I believe). We spent a good portion of the time protected by the F5000 canopy as we went thru the construction of the Daren and its association with the Ford F3L, the JW Mirage etc. The car eventually ended up in Singapore and was entered in the 1971 Grand Prix in the Sports and GT class although it didn't actually race in the event (driver change wasn't permitted or something to that effect). Another mystery solved although a rebuild would take another lifetime.

Eli
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