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Old 5 Jan 2012, 23:37 (Ref:3007947)   #276
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If you know of some talented females including yourself as you claim, name them so we can keep an eye on their progress or lack of it as the case may be?
Sure, Alice Powell and Louise Richardson are two drivers who I feel have the drive and born talent to achieve highly. There are others out there who are doing better with each race and are racing at a good level however in my opinion do not have the natural ability to achieve in such high standards of competition. But that's just my opinion and I'd be more than happy to be proved wrong!

Also as well as the whole percentage of females/males explanation I think that big companies and sponsorship deals are too scared or weary to invest all their money into a woman and support them to the top. As has been proven in this very thread that there are some males out there who still have a sexist opinion on females in motorsport etc. If the deal doesn't go to plan and the female does not prove herself then they are just in for the "I told you so" remark, which would make them seem foolish.
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Old 6 Jan 2012, 00:49 (Ref:3007978)   #277
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Bradley , doesnt that occur with male racers though.

There are drivers out there who trade on name and not their current skill level, who are holding out drivers who have the skill, but not the name

Thats marketing and with motorsports being so marketing (budget) focused its chooses who gets to race and who doesnt
depending on what part your talkining about, specifically, when you see say... Morris and rodney jane push each other around, it grabs a few headlines... if you saw say, Leanne and Murphy do the same thing regardless of what the situation was Murph would be in big trouble... (by the way I do rate Leanne as a driver - Don't take any of the comments i've made as derogitory or saying that women couldn't make it in motorsport)
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Old 6 Jan 2012, 01:44 (Ref:3007987)   #278
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Also as well as the whole percentage of females/males explanation I think that big companies and sponsorship deals are too scared or weary to invest all their money into a woman and support them to the top. As has been proven in this very thread that there are some males out there who still have a sexist opinion on females in motorsport etc. If the deal doesn't go to plan and the female does not prove herself then they are just in for the "I told you so" remark, which would make them seem foolish.
What you describe is patronage, not sponsorship. And patronage does exist out there in motorsport.

With sponsorship in terms of "supporting someone to the top", there isn't much in the way of promotional benefits out there at the lower levels of motorsport, so for most large companies there just isn't the benefit to sponsor someone as it isn't worthwhile.

Often people think companies should be just happy to have their name on a race car or that they just have tons of money to spend on people's hobbies. We have to remember all these private companies have a core business to focus on, are not in the business of motor racing and they probably have a tightly controlled and thought out marketing plan and budget.

These companies have no idea who will make it to the top or not, but they are probably wise enough to see that not many make it to the top at all. And what is in it for them? What promotional benefits are they going to realize? There has to be some kind of business plan for the sponsor to make money, regardless of how the driver performs or not. I really don't think most companies would care about whether a driver is a woman or a man. If they do take a sponsorship proposal under consideration, it will be about whether there is a workable business plan to realize some significant benefit from their expenditure.

With regards to sexism or discrimination, that's never going away and probably the more social engineering and political correctness that goes on, the more some people are going to push back against it. People are always going to have their opinion.

The big failure of feminism was to try to force themselves on a mans world, when they are not men and never will be. Men and women are built differently, have different brain chemistry, think differently, socialize differently, see the world differently. I'm glad those differences exist because the world would be a boring place otherwise. Embrace the differences and accent your strengths.

The most successful women drivers I know and I know a few, are ones that are feminine and that don't try to be something they are not(a man). They go about their business with a positive attitude, carry themselves and present themselves with class, act in a professional manner and focus on getting good results. The ones that carry around this sourpuss snarling baggage of "blah I didn't succeed because everyone is sexist and they hate women and waaaa...,", those ladies don't do well with people, because no one wants to deal with all that heavy baggage and debbie downer everyone is out to get me attitude.
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Old 6 Jan 2012, 02:45 (Ref:3007996)   #279
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The most successful women drivers I know and I know a few, are ones that are feminine and that don't try to be something they are not(a man). They go about their business with a positive attitude, carry themselves and present themselves with class, act in a professional manner and focus on getting good results. The ones that carry around this sourpuss snarling baggage of "blah I didn't succeed because everyone is sexist and they hate women and waaaa...,", those ladies don't do well with people, because no one wants to deal with all that heavy baggage and debbie downer everyone is out to get me attitude.
exactly the same thing goes for any drivers, male or female, who are usually short on money and who complain about it to anyone and everyone who will listen. if you act positive, talk about what you have got and what you can bring to a party rather than what you're lacking you'll find yourself to be much more successful.

the only problem with not admitting there's an issue with attitudes is that then other people think they don't exist. they do. and always will do unless those attitudes are called out for what they are. which is negative and symptomatic of a bad attitude to life and the workplace.
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Old 6 Jan 2012, 04:13 (Ref:3008006)   #280
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the only problem with not admitting there's an issue with attitudes is that then other people think they don't exist. they do. and always will do unless those attitudes are called out for what they are. which is negative and symptomatic of a bad attitude to life and the workplace.
My point would be, whatever those attitudes are, you have to do what you have to do and you have to do what you enjoy. Back years ago as a teenager when I was competing at the national level in another sport and winning a national title, my rivals vandalized my car and house several times and were openly proud of it. I started with nothing in that sport, was ridiculed, called every name in the book, you name it, but I worked really hard and put a lot of good effort in. Later after high school, when I decided I wanted to be a racing driver, most of my family savaged my decision and poked fun at it for years and a lot of other people over the years were not kind either.

However on the opposite end of the spectrum, there have been a lot of very supportive, helpful people over the years and the reason I have been able to have the life I do is because people recommended me or took a chance on me.

So have big filters on your ears, do what you need to do and understand not everyone is going to like you, support you or say nice things to you. And especially as it regards to women drivers, do what you enjoy doing and what makes you happy.

Look at unjustified criticism and nasty comments as a big bonus, because it highlights the people you don't want to associate with. Take justified and well meant criticism as having a benefit towards you improving and moving forward with what you want to do. Lastly, have the wisdom to know the difference between the two.
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Old 6 Jan 2012, 10:23 (Ref:3008071)   #281
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So, having always thought this topic was overrated "Cos chicks just don't like racin'". Reading others opinions as to why girls/women aren't involved more due to a sexist nature that is apparent in motorsport that is prejudiced against females (That is the theme I'm picking up, anyway). I Thought I'd apply, what I'd think, would be a common opinion of a male driver with the record of known female competitors.

Firstly, Leanne Tander. If a guy had won a single fford race/round and finished in the top 5, once, came second overall a couple of times in Gold Star, maybe should've won one of them, with a handful of wins, what would/we I think of them? We'd think they're OK, competent, nothing special, worthy of the odd drive at Bathurst with a small team maybe. Nothing to lose your mind over and wonder "What may've been?" This would be the consensus amongst those aware of Leanne? So, I'm not sure if she is a victim of prejudice...in fact, she isn't.

Secondly, Danica Patrick. Had they been a guy shameless enough to take advantage of motorsport and develop a driving career in based on superficiality, then, I can't begin to think of the vitriol he would receive! Danica has got off lightly, prejudice has worked in her favour. Btw, if mountainstar is right, Danica hadn't won a race til that sham in Japan, well, if there wasn't already a low enough opinion of the IRL, but that's pathetic! What an embarrassment that she even threatened to win Indy! Truly, the lowest point in the 500's history, this last decade.

Does anybody disagree? Just remember "Chicks just don't like racin'"
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Old 6 Jan 2012, 15:26 (Ref:3008195)   #282
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i disagree, but purely on a "that's an extreme viewpoint" basis. if that's an opinion that people (or a person) has then, well, ok.

personally, i'm not a danica fan, but i respect her for making her way to where she has. when drivers who have a sizeable amount of backing, i can only rationalise it on the basis that there's a car running there that likely wouldn't have been running without that money. again, going back to the father-funded son comparison really - a car is a car, regardless of who's driving it. it's only when you come to f1 where there's more drivers than available seats that you begin to have a moral question i suppose.

it's all very well saying you have to put up with the attitudes in the workplace that you experience, cause it's true. to an extent. so long as you have the right working relationship and respect from your mechanic, engineer and team manager the others can take a flying leap. that goes for any gender. but if you're getting an unprofessional and/or abusive attitude from anyone, you take it to your manager, as you would do in any situation. in the end, as a driver, you're the one paying the money and paying their wages. anyone still giving you grief in that context deserves to be looking elsewhere for a job. a victim attitude will never help you get the most from yourself or the car, or the job. but just saying 'man up' (gender pun not intended) isn't the whole solution.

for the record i know plenty of female engineering students, both current, graduated and employed in f1 scenarios. and i've met one or two very good female mechanics too. chicks *do* like racing
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Old 6 Jan 2012, 23:39 (Ref:3008428)   #283
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Firstly, Leanne Tander. If a guy had won a single fford race/round and finished in the top 5, once, came second overall a couple of times in Gold Star, maybe should've won one of them, with a handful of wins, what would/we I think of them? We'd think they're OK, competent, nothing special, worthy of the odd drive at Bathurst with a small team maybe. Nothing to lose your mind over and wonder "What may've been?" This would be the consensus amongst those aware of Leanne? So, I'm not sure if she is a victim of prejudice...in fact, she isn't.

Does anybody disagree? Just remember "Chicks just don't like racin'"
So, just for amusements sake, print out the racing records of every driver currently engaged in V8SC. Then go through them and find the drivers that have a BETTER record in other classes (mainly open wheelers) than Leanne Tander. Of the entire field I'd say that only Lowndes, Whincup, Caruso, Will Davison and possible Van Gisbergen have a better record. The rest of them just don't stack up against her yet they have a full time drive in the premier series in the country and nobody has considered her. When she finished 3rd in the F/Ford title, behind her were Will Davison, Will Power, Owen Kelly, Marcus Marshall and Barton Mawer ... they all seemed to get a fair crack at it after that. I'd say that some people just don't like chicks racin ...
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 00:01 (Ref:3008436)   #284
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Firstly, the fact that we are talking about Leanne, just shows how desperate you are for information, she debuted in a v8 11 years ago, we have had no one since

if it helps deeks, these drivers have won the championship

ingall lowndes bright garth, will jame Reynolds

Rick kelly has a goldstar championship

caruso won the wonj ust f3 championship as did reindler
coultard won nz formula ford championship
Winterbottom won the kartstars championship
courtney won the british formula ford championship


many of those drivers saw the championship as a steeping stone and moved up to the next level soon after this

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Old 7 Jan 2012, 01:25 (Ref:3008456)   #285
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 02:22 (Ref:3008471)   #286
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So, just for amusements sake, print out the racing records of every driver currently engaged in V8SC. Then go through them and find the drivers that have a BETTER record in other classes (mainly open wheelers) than Leanne Tander. Of the entire field I'd say that only Lowndes, Whincup, Caruso, Will Davison and possible Van Gisbergen have a better record. The rest of them just don't stack up against her yet they have a full time drive in the premier series in the country and nobody has considered her. When she finished 3rd in the F/Ford title, behind her were Will Davison, Will Power, Owen Kelly, Marcus Marshall and Barton Mawer ... they all seemed to get a fair crack at it after that. I'd say that some people just don't like chicks racin ...
So your hypothesis is that because Leanne finished 3rd in Formula Ford one year and other people succeeded more than her, it was a vast male motor racing conspiracy?

I think she got a fair crack, including a run in Konica with Garry Rogers IRC, before choosing to finish her studies and start a career in accounting. And I think she did well working her way back in before choosing to start a family. I'm having a hard time here understanding why she was supposed to be handled 3 championships and a prime ride at 888 because she was a woman?

If 3rd in the Australian Formula Ford series guaranteed a 20 year pro career, I would think there are a lot of people out there that should be hacked off.
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 02:43 (Ref:3008476)   #287
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mountainstar to be fair, she finished 2nd , twice, in the Australian drivers championship.
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 03:29 (Ref:3008482)   #288
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mountainstar to be fair, she finished 2nd , twice, in the Australian drivers championship.
Yes she did but she didnt win one, Leanne as good as she is or was has always just fallen short of the mark for one reason or another in all classes.

However in my opinion Leanne would hose Danica off the track if given the same equipment, but we probably will never see it, Danica is extremely average on road courses and just average on ovals.

@ peckstar, I think "Frosty" also won his Formula Ford season which resulted from his "Karstars" win and then went on to win the Konica developement series as well the next year
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 03:32 (Ref:3008484)   #289
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So your hypothesis is that because Leanne finished 3rd in Formula Ford one year and other people succeeded more than her, it was a vast male motor racing conspiracy?

I think she got a fair crack, including a run in Konica with Garry Rogers IRC, before choosing to finish her studies and start a career in accounting. And I think she did well working her way back in before choosing to start a family. I'm having a hard time here understanding why she was supposed to be handled 3 championships and a prime ride at 888 because she was a woman?

If 3rd in the Australian Formula Ford series guaranteed a 20 year pro career, I would think there are a lot of people out there that should be hacked off.
Um, no, perhaps you should read it again ... I'm hypothesising that 20+ drivers who have a paid ride in the premier series in Australia have racing records nowhere near as good as she has in open wheeler classes yet she does not. And her performances in Konica series as a rookie with no V8 experience were certainly good enough to warrant another go. As peckstar said she also ran 2nd in Gold Star twice and could easily have won either time. She also has a couple of minor championships to her name in improved production touring cars. The point is that lots of guys who finished behind her in various series have gotten opportunities but you appear determined to poo-poo that. Nobody said anything guarantees a 20 year pro career but, on face value, there are plenty of guys getting a crack at it despite having achieved far less.
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 03:33 (Ref:3008485)   #290
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mountainstar to be fair, she finished 2nd , twice, in the Australian drivers championship.
I'm just going off of what deeks presented as their factual argument. I'm aware of her runs in F3. But it's further evidence of the vast male australian motorsport conspiracy against women drivers.
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 03:51 (Ref:3008489)   #291
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Um, no, perhaps you should read it again ... I'm hypothesising that 20+ drivers who have a paid ride in the premier series in Australia have racing records nowhere near as good as she has in open wheeler classes yet she does not. And her performances in Konica series as a rookie with no V8 experience were certainly good enough to warrant another go. As peckstar said she also ran 2nd in Gold Star twice and could easily have won either time. She also has a couple of minor championships to her name in improved production touring cars. The point is that lots of guys who finished behind her in various series have gotten opportunities but you appear determined to poo-poo that. Nobody said anything guarantees a 20 year pro career but, on face value, there are plenty of guys getting a crack at it despite having achieved far less.
deeks when you check the results that i provided on the previous page , around half the field have a national open wheel title off some sort, and usually at a younger age and usually after only 2 or 3 attempts
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Old 7 Jan 2012, 10:09 (Ref:3008555)   #292
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personally, i'm not a danica fan, but i respect her for making her way to where she has.
Good one! Imagine, actually having respect for Patrick??? She is a freakin' embarrassment, to the motorsport community, women as a whole and for the cause of women making their way to the higher levels of motorsport...Wait. Are you being serious?...My word...That's scary!

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for the record i know plenty of female engineering students, both current, graduated and employed in f1 scenarios. and i've met one or two very good female mechanics too. chicks *do* like racing
Just because you, Abbie44, Paula Elstrek, Leanne Tander, a few more no name competitors, a girl I used to work with who liked rallying, two women mountainstar knows a dozen or so student/qualified engineers you know, doesn't mean women like motorsport. There are only about 3.5 billion of you!

Females, naturally, like more creative and/or social pastimes, as you know, after all, look at your username. I don't mean to make you feel bad, make fun of you or come across as smarta***. I'm confident that "bella" isn't latin for "fastfemme", "quickchick" or "dangerouscurves". Am I right? Typically, chicks think racing is "Boring", "Just cars going round in circles". What would they know?

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So, just for amusements sake, print out the racing records of every driver currently engaged in V8SC. Then go through them and find the drivers that have a BETTER record in other classes (mainly open wheelers) than Leanne Tander. Of the entire field I'd say that only Lowndes, Whincup, Caruso, Will Davison and possible Van Gisbergen have a better record. The rest of them just don't stack up against her yet they have a full time drive in the premier series in the country and nobody has considered her. When she finished 3rd in the F/Ford title, behind her were Will Davison, Will Power, Owen Kelly, Marcus Marshall and Barton Mawer ... they all seemed to get a fair crack at it after that. I'd say that some people just don't like chicks racin ...
Based on the recent posts I've read of yours, you're taking this topic too seriously, I think. Firstly, to get it out of the way, even if she beat Power once in fford, I would take Power over Tander any day! Will's a freakin animal!

Secondly, the guys who have a comparable record, that have a fulltime V8 drive, for however many years but are not the known guns, are thought of as losers as well! I mean, for instance, there was no logical reason for Garry Rogers to take on Holdsworth, I don't think much of either of them. Just because a pair of chumps, like the Kelly brothers, make their way up. I s this a justification for Leanne to?

The point I'm making is that Leanne's record, even if a guy produced those exact results, doesn't automatically warrant a "You've just got to take him/her!" full-time drive. She didn't move me in any way to think she did, the same way, I suspect, you couldn't care less about Troy Dunstan, Troy Hunt, Stephen White, Gavin Monaghan, Paul Stokell, Adam Macrow or similar not forging a full-time, professional careers. I myself, without knowing them closely, wondered most about Stephen White and Paul Stokell.
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Old 8 Jan 2012, 02:31 (Ref:3008822)   #293
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not wanting to pick, but it's only the other ones you mention where she can be teamed with better drivers who can carry her and hide her abilities, or lack of.
I didn't investigate her treammantes, but consider that some rival teams had two prorer drivers. If she won many races, then she had to beat their teammates too.
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Old 8 Jan 2012, 04:31 (Ref:3008840)   #294
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Couple of things to consider.
Did Leanne in fact prove she was smarter than the boys by realising that learning how to control the finances of the family enterprise was the best long term move?
Done a quick crawl through this, and maybe missed it, but can't see a mention of Jutta Klienschmidt, a winner in what would seem to be the toughest motor sport event in the world.
Roll on fellas. I am willing to admit that over a long distance I will get there about one tenth of one percent quicker than my missus and stagger from behind the wheel in a spent heap. She will leap out all bright and shiny having used less fuel, less tyre wear or brakes and generally looked after the machinery.
Not all women are the same, but the good ones really can bring a level of preservation of the vehicle going quick over a long distance that few men can emulate.
By the way, ask a mine manager who he would rather have driving dump trucks.
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Old 8 Jan 2012, 18:34 (Ref:3009078)   #295
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Good one! Imagine, actually having respect for Patrick??? She is a freakin' embarrassment, to the motorsport community, women as a whole and for the cause of women making their way to the higher levels of motorsport...Wait. Are you being serious?...My word...That's scary!
well she's played everyone and everybody to the extent that she's got to indycar and nascar, fully funded. i'd say that deserves some respect, from whatever source.

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Females, naturally, like more creative and/or social pastimes, as you know, after all, look at your username. I don't mean to make you feel bad, make fun of you or come across as smarta***. I'm confident that "bella" isn't latin for "fastfemme", "quickchick" or "dangerouscurves". Am I right? Typically, chicks think racing is "Boring", "Just cars going round in circles". What would they know?
i'm not saying *all* women like motorsport. i'm saying far, far more do than you assume do. what's my username got to do with anything? i was studying italian, one of my four foreign languages at the time.

just because most of the women *you* see in motorsport are paid to wear lycra, hold umbrellas and pose for photos doesn't mean there's not hundreds of them sat in the grandstands, and not just to keep their partners company.

your suggestion that women prefer more creative pasttimes... do you think cars are designed by witchcraft? what isn't creative about rebuilding a car or engineering a solution to make it go faster? your perception is outdated and your insistence that everyone else is wrong is even more outdated. in europe you'll find an awful lot of women showing men up in traditionally male-dominated industries because *finally* the stereotype driven nonsense like the drivel you spout is irrelevant. maybe australian culture is a decade or so behind us, maybe it's not your fault your view is outdated.

and to add to oldtony's very valid mention of the awesome jutta klienschmidt, if you look in detail at dakar, particularly in the 80s when it was very serious business there's a surprising number of women who drove and navigated. they're my heroes. what an epic, incredible adventure. all the more shame we don't get to hear their stories more often.

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By the way, ask a mine manager who he would rather have driving dump trucks.
that was the opinion of the guy i learnt to drive and passed my truck licence with too
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Old 8 Jan 2012, 19:57 (Ref:3009105)   #296
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Nobody is denying that women are not capable drivers. I've heard similar comments about women's superior capabilities in looking after trucks and machinery. But, like other sports, football (most codes), cricket, tennis, golf etc, they play the game amongst themselves very competitively, but can't cut it against the guys and never will, due to the reasons already discussed. After all is said and done, and the excuses run out, there still ain't one woman in motorsport history and none on the radar at the moment, that can be said to be a household name who is won anything of significance competing against the guys. I love watching top notch women's sport, beach volleyball especially.
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Old 8 Jan 2012, 20:48 (Ref:3009122)   #297
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come on porche, surely Danica is as good as a household name , at least in the USA, as anyone in Indycar.

and she has won a race and finished in the top 5 of the championship.

too me that suggest she meets your criteria,

But she will never win the champpionship, shes not quite good enough, and there currently no one else racing in the top levels who will
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Old 9 Jan 2012, 01:37 (Ref:3009220)   #298
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there still ain't one woman in motorsport history and none on the radar at the moment, that can be said to be a household name who is won anything of significance competing against the guys.
OK so Dakar is a soft, insignificant event with no guys competing.
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Old 9 Jan 2012, 04:55 (Ref:3009236)   #299
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well she's played everyone and everybody to the extent that she's got to indycar and nascar, fully funded. i'd say that deserves some respect, from whatever source.
As a "fellow" motor racing fan, this is a very disappointing comment. Your respect for "her" has nothing to do with her ability as a driver, her character as a tough competitor or as someone who can be a leader within the team and produce results, nothing to do with motorsport at all! Your "respect" for her is all to do with overcoming the heavy political nature of motor racing through superficial means, even though her demonstrated ability suggests she is unworthy of being there. A common opinion amongst all females, I suspect, as a result of a huge inferiority complex amongst women. Man, woman or beast, Patrick's presence amongst the motorsport community should be widely ridiculed, she does nothing to enhance the image of motorsport or women being accepted as legitimate coimpetitors.


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i'm not saying *all* women like motorsport. i'm saying far, far more do than you assume do. what's my username got to do with anything? i was studying italian, one of my four foreign languages at the time.
Regardless of how many women enjoy motorsport, it is an insignificant number and, with the exception of a female bathroom, shouldn't be specifically accomdated for, a waste of time and resources. Your username? I just noted that it had nothing to do with motorsport or cars. The word "beautiful" does play a huge part in the conscious of females, doesn't it? It does affect what pastimes or hobbies they like, don't they? If you asked all females "What would you much rather participate in, motorsport or learning a new language?" An overwhelming majority who choose to learn a new language, since motor racing is "boring"

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Originally Posted by bella View Post
your suggestion that women prefer more creative pasttimes... do you think cars are designed by witchcraft? what isn't creative about rebuilding a car or engineering a solution to make it go faster? your perception is outdated and your insistence that everyone else is wrong is even more outdated. in europe you'll find an awful lot of women showing men up in traditionally male-dominated industries because *finally* the stereotype driven nonsense like the drivel you spout is irrelevant. maybe australian culture is a decade or so behind us, maybe it's not your fault your view is outdated.
Nice to know that haughty, European snobbery hasn't died down over there. Women, by a long way, would naturally choose a more artistic, creative pastime than get involved in motorsport, it may hurt but it's true. No, I don't think cars are designed by witchcraft, I don't know where you are going with that but it's nice to know that you can see an artistic element in designing a racing car.


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and to add to oldtony's very valid mention of the awesome jutta klienschmidt
I'm not as familiar with Jutta, I do know she was a Dakar winner, however, I do get the impression she is a respected competitor and has as high a profile as most male Dakar winners do (not very high at all). Regarding driving dump trucks, as well as you or any other woman may drive them, a key factor that makes driving them insignificant is that you don't have to drive them quickly or race them.
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Old 9 Jan 2012, 06:43 (Ref:3009247)   #300
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I'm not as familiar with Jutta, I do know she was a Dakar winner, however, I do get the impression she is a respected competitor and has as high a profile as most male Dakar winners do (not very high at all).
Dakar may not have a very high profile in Australia but I would suggest that in most parts of the non-Anglo world it is around the same status as an F1 GP win. Certainly bigger than IRL, WTCC etc and almost on a par with Monaco, Indy or Le Mans.
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