Mustang Is Go!!!!

[Mixer]

The VT was slower in a straight line because it was a lot wider than the VS

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

[gtcapri]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Where was all this commentary in 2006-2009 while 888 Fords were winning the championship and Bathurst?

Even 2010 was won in a 888-built car for DJR.

But all we hear from Ford fans now is how the series is 888/Holden biased, was it 888/Ford biased before? You can't have this both ways...

Despite the claims, the Commodore never dominated the series, 888 dominated the series, in both marques.

The Mustang however saw peanuts leap up 15 spots in the championship standings, and grabbing podium spots even when they could barely get out of their own way. The thing was an own goal through an outdated and flawed homologation process, with a car that clearly departed from the production car for performance reasons, and in hindsight the series shouldn't have let it be homologated as it was, especially with the rear wing end plates. These provide a huge cornering stability and therefore tyre wear benefit, and is in no way measured by the straight line testing.

Ludo also has plenty of from for creative rule interpretation, but nothing as dodgy or dangerous as 25kg mufflers.

The series has plenty of form for mid-season changes against both makes, so spare me the "Holden has never been penalised" malarkey. People like Bowe complaining about the squeaky wheel are comical. DJR and BJR were the biggest whingers in the AU era, then SBR showed them how it was done with the BA - and then 888 came along.

888's FG particularly was nigh on unbeatable, and was probably the best ever Supercar - in factory and customer hands. Maybe we'll never see a customer car win the series again.

Where was complaining when SBR and 888 dominated in Fords? It was coming from HRT fans. Short memory or convenient?

Really? Holden has never dominated? How many races did the AU ever win?
In fact did anyone in a AU finish a championship higher than fourth? And that is a classic example of Supercars clueless attempts at parity compounded with Ford teams falling over each other on track. If you were JB you'd be complaining too!!

Borrowed from FF.

PARITY since Project Blueprint in 2003

* RACE WINS
- Holden 296, Ford 195

* BATHURST
- Holden 11, Ford 5

* DRIVERS CHAMPIONSHIP
- Holden 8, Ford 8

* MANUFACTURERS TITLES
- Holden 12, Ford 4

It's interesting that in 2011, Holden wins 24 v Ford wins 4, and as recently as 2016. Holden wins 26 v Ford wins 2!!!!

So a peanut team is NOT allowed to improve with a new model? Must of missed that memo. So must've MSR and Erebus. Remember 888 have uncharacteristically tripped over themselves a lot this season as well. Even so Jamie was second in the championship until PI.

Nobody here has any proof on wing plates including the series itself because it hasn't been tested yet!!

The car that everyone is whinging about (Mustang) was built to the rules and approved. In the same way 888 pushed the limits to the rule book, so has DJR Penske. So where did the current whining coming from about the Mustang? Mixer hasn't stopped. Everything from vehicle design to paint jobs.

Lead filled mufflers or lead lining between heat shield and floor. Which ones illegal and which ones more dangerous? Flexing splitters rear wings, how far do you want to go? As you know it's innovation when your teams using it, cheating when the opposition thinks of it first.

In fact where have I said Holden have never been nobbled? Of course they have. If you were paying attention In fact I'm one of the few on here that thinks Little and Burgess is a great addition, if not for the ham fisted way Supercars is handling the affair then things would be fine.

888 nigh unbeatable in FG's? Yet they were!! As you say DJR did in one of 888's much like Hazelwood is starting to do this year in Whincups Commodore from last year. Every great team eventually slides. DJR/SBR/HRT and now 888. Face it the days of customer cars winning championships disappeared long before this century, mores the pity. Which means what happens if Holden pull the plug or really reduces the budget?

Jerico, if the Ford fans are cry cry whinge whinge, where did the whinging over the Mustang originate from?? Wouldn't be Holden or its fans would it? If it werent for them we wouldn't be visiting parity arguments over the Mustang. Might be a shock to you but all sides whinge, including yours.

[Umai Naa]

How shortsighted must one be, to insist that it's simply a Holden Vs Ford matter?

[gtcapri]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

How shortsighted must one be, to insist that it's simply a Holden Vs Ford matter?

Did we not agree in the beginning that if Holden fans were one side and the Ford fans were on the other, where were the Nissan fans going to sit?? Had Supercars got its act together a lot sooner we'd have Volvo's, Mercs and possibly Hyundais competing on fairly even terms with Holden and Ford. Alas it didn't happen soon enough. That wouldve been far better.

TCR might be the better alternative?

[kittle]

Originally Posted by gtcapri

Where was complaining when SBR and 888 dominated in Fords? It was coming from HRT fans. Short memory or convenient?

Really? Holden has never dominated? How many races did the AU ever win?
In fact did anyone in a AU finish a championship higher than fourth? And that is a classic example of Supercars clueless attempts at parity compounded with Ford teams falling over each other on track. If you were JB you'd be complaining too!!

Borrowed from FF.

PARITY since Project Blueprint in 2003

* RACE WINS
- Holden 296, Ford 195

* BATHURST
- Holden 11, Ford 5

* DRIVERS CHAMPIONSHIP
- Holden 8, Ford 8

* MANUFACTURERS TITLES
- Holden 12, Ford 4

It's interesting that in 2011, Holden wins 24 v Ford wins 4, and as recently as 2016. Holden wins 26 v Ford wins 2!!!!

So a peanut team is NOT allowed to improve with a new model? Must of missed that memo. So must've MSR and Erebus. Remember 888 have uncharacteristically tripped over themselves a lot this season as well. Even so Jamie was second in the championship until PI.

Nobody here has any proof on wing plates including the series itself because it hasn't been tested yet!!

The car that everyone is whinging about (Mustang) was built to the rules and approved. In the same way 888 pushed the limits to the rule book, so has DJR Penske. So where did the current whining coming from about the Mustang? Mixer hasn't stopped. Everything from vehicle design to paint jobs.

Lead filled mufflers or lead lining between heat shield and floor. Which ones illegal and which ones more dangerous? Flexing splitters rear wings, how far do you want to go? As you know it's innovation when your teams using it, cheating when the opposition thinks of it first.

In fact where have I said Holden have never been nobbled? Of course they have. If you were paying attention In fact I'm one of the few on here that thinks Little and Burgess is a great addition, if not for the ham fisted way Supercars is handling the affair then things would be fine.

888 nigh unbeatable in FG's? Yet they were!! As you say DJR did in one of 888's much like Hazelwood is starting to do this year in Whincups Commodore from last year. Every great team eventually slides. DJR/SBR/HRT and now 888. Face it the days of customer cars winning championships disappeared long before this century, mores the pity. Which means what happens if Holden pull the plug or really reduces the budget?

Jerico, if the Ford fans are cry cry whinge whinge, where did the whinging over the Mustang originate from?? Wouldn't be Holden or its fans would it? If it werent for them we wouldn't be visiting parity arguments over the Mustang. Might be a shock to you but all sides whinge, including yours.

We need a like button.

I follow Supercars as a whole. Yeah we might be biased with who we like. But maybe mixing it up the front is what’s needed.

888 are struggling with setup up. And whether they’re are the major players in the complaint to Supercars , who knows. But concentrating on your own garage is what each team needs to do.

The Mustang is out front but again every new car that hits the track always has that advantage of the unknown until we get a few races in.

[Umai Naa]

Originally Posted by gtcapri

Did we not agree in the beginning that if Holden fans were one side and the Ford fans were on the other, where were the Nissan fans going to sit?? Had Supercars got its act together a lot sooner we'd have Volvo's, Mercs and possibly Hyundais competing on fairly even terms with Holden and Ford. Alas it didn't happen soon enough. That wouldve been far better.

TCR might be the better alternative?

TCR fiddles with their parity measures all season.

So perhaps that's not the answer?

[Jack65]

Originally Posted by gtcapri

It's interesting that in 2011, Holden wins 24 v Ford wins 4, and as recently as 2016. Holden wins 26 v Ford wins 2!!!!

In 2011 DJR basically imploded after the bust up with Charlie resulting in James Courtney, Adrian Burgess and some other key personnel leaving the building. FPR meanwhile appeared to be finding new ways to trip over their own feet at that time. The FG and VF in 2016, were exactly the same as 2015 when FPR had won the championship, so parity wasn't the issue there.

Seems that people fall into one of three camps:
*one eyed Ford supporters who think the whole thing is a stitch up
*one eyed Holden supporters who think that Ford is cheating and that they deserve everything they get
*more pragmatic supporters who understand that it is a parity formula and that V8SC have made a hash of the homologation process. While mid-season changes are not a great look, they realise that something has to be done

Seems to be members of the former 2 groups who are doing all the ranting, while those in the latter are more measured in their comments.

[V8 Fireworks]

the ZB’s expected aerodynamic advantages have clearly convinced [Holden runners] to make the switch, despite complaints about the cost T8 has been charging for parts.

https://www.motoring.com.au/motorspo...vealed-110646/

The baffling part is whether the ZB has aerodynamic advantages over the VF Commodore (which were claimed by 888 when they realised it) and, if so, why parity adjustments are not being made to the ZB as well to bring it into line with the VF and FGX?

All five models remain eligible, and as many posters say it is crucial that cornerstone technical parity must be achieved between them to prevent a "development war".

Originally Posted by Jack65

V8SC have made a hash of the homologation process

Expect that all cars complied with the regulations (downforce and drag at 200kpg, confirmed by runway test) and were signed off. Therefore it seems, instead, that it was a highly successful homologation process!

Tickford -- one of the absolute fines, and most skilled teams in the series -- were struggling to get on the podium with Mustang at PI, showing clearly that there is no advantage at all with Mustang. Instead, podiums were shared between Commodore, Altima and Mustang which IMO showed that technical parity was already clearly evident!

[Of course testing to confirm equivalence to FGX and VF still needs to be carried out!]

Originally Posted by Jack65

while those in the latter are more measured in their comments.

Given DJRTP, regarded widely as the most skilled team in the series by far, were barely able to win at PI and being already hurried by lesser runners, are you not worried the unqualified and unsubstantiated adjustments may unfairly disadvantage DJRTP and deny them their deserved Bathurst and championship victories?

[Trevor]

For me it is not a 'Commodore vs a Mustang' it is the pressure that is bought to bear by one team and one team owner. They must be **** scared of them, obviously Dane or one of his cohorts caught someone humping a cat at some point

[Compromised]

New model comes in - homologation required

Make changes to a model - no homologation required

Very strange from a procedural point of view - if you use the homologation testing for new cars, it kind of follows that any car requiring mid season changes would need re-homologation no? How exactly do you know the modifications were adequate/excessive/not enough? Just use the next championship round as a homologation test I guess?

Not like this year's championship doesn't have a huge, Mustang-rear-wing sized asterisk next to it anyway................. .................................

[gtcapri]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

TCR fiddles with their parity measures all season.

So perhaps that's not the answer?

Yet to be seen I guess. TCR's way of handling their parity problems may have a more professional approach than Supercars. I guess we'll find out soon enough. One positive is at least there are more manufacturers involved and they aren't all that much slower than Supercars.

I applaud Supercars in the fact they have finally recognised the parity process is hopelessly flawed and steps are being made to rectify it. But I think we can all agree their methods of handling things needs more work and transparency if they want to continue to move forward. We can't change the past, but we can the future.

[Umai Naa]

Originally Posted by gtcapri

Yet to be seen I guess. TCR's way of handling their parity problems may have a more professional approach than Supercars. I guess we'll find out soon enough. One positive is at least there are more manufacturers involved and they aren't all that much slower than Supercars.

I applaud Supercars in the fact they have finally recognised the parity process is hopelessly flawed and steps are being made to rectify it. But I think we can all agree their methods of handling things needs more work and transparency if they want to continue to move forward. We can't change the past, but we can the future.

Unless you're the WTCC and start demanding parity changes at the last minute that aren't practical.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by gtcapri

In fact did anyone in a AU finish a championship higher than fourth? And that is a classic example of Supercars clueless attempts at parity compounded with Ford teams falling over each other on track. If you were JB you'd be complaining too!!

There was never a parity issue with the AU, it was just a sack of crap. The front splitter was completely flawed and you couldn't run over a blade of grass without losing the entire front splitter. Only fixed by grafting the bottom of the VT splitter to it. Also you strangely ignore the AU running a second faster the next year in the Dunlop series... The car was fine after the splitter change, but the teams at the time could never get on top of it.

Then SBR came out after it and thumped everybody with their BA.

if Ford hadn't coughed up 888, Ford would have won just about everything for the last 15 years, and the blame for that wholely rests at Ford's feet. 888 has dominated more or less since their entry, and dominated for longer than DJR, HRT or SBR were able to in their respective tenures. Maybe we're seeing another one of those changes now.

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

TCR fiddles with their parity measures all season. So perhaps that's not the answer?

How about the Hyundais having their boost cut and being disqualified from quali a while back, imagine that happening in Supercars?

[Umai Naa]

Originally Posted by Mixer

How about the Hyundais having their boost cut and being disqualified from quali a while back, imagine that happening in Supercars?

Refer to my previous post.

WTCR/WTCC (FIA) uses the global TCR BOP as a starting point. They then decided to implement their own additional measures including boost limits against the advice of WSC (TCR catagory management), which backfired spectacularly. The cars in most if not all cases, are boost-managed by the ECU. To alter the boost settings requires a complete remap, however the parameters are locked at the time of homologation at the start of the season when all cars are tested back-to-back on track, in the wind tunnel, and on the dyno.

I think Honda was also involved. To do a complete remap of the ECUs of half a dozen cars or thereabouts from the two camps by their respective tuning partners, wasn't practical at such short notice (it was mandated at the actual race meeting, from memory). Drivers were actually lifting and short-shifting to avoid going beyond the new maximum boost pressure.

Under normal TCR-sanctioned competition, it's only the minimum ride height and weight that are adjusted throughout the season. In comparision to Supercars, they do as much as they can to get the recipie right at the start of the year. If a manufacturer isn't showing their full hand, or are perhaps foxing, the catagory has ways of evening things out.

[Gaz170]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

https://www.motoring.com.au/motorspo...vealed-110646/

The baffling part is whether the ZB has aerodynamic advantages over the VF Commodore (which were claimed by 888 when they realised it) and, if so, why parity adjustments are not being made to the ZB as well to bring it into line with the VF and FGX?

To me, this is the key point. The Commodore had an undoubted aero advantage last year, and to get the Falcons to the same speed meant running almost no wing, which only 1 driver in a Falcon could master and went on to win the Championship, in spite of this disadvantage. No aero adjustment was made in the name of parity then. Now Ford has gone to the next step and all hell breaks loose and everyone asks for parity.

Although it may be the best thing to do from a sporting equality point of view, it gives all the appearance of favouritism to Holden runners and goes back to the bad old days of Group C in the early 1980s when he who whinged the loudest got the concessions they wanted.

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

Refer to my previous post.

WTCR/WTCC (FIA) uses the global TCR BOP as a starting point. They then decided to implement their own additional measures including boost limits against the advice of WSC (TCR catagory management), which backfired spectacularly. The cars in most if not all cases, are boost-managed by the ECU. To alter the boost settings requires a complete remap, however the parameters are locked at the time of homologation at the start of the season when all cars are tested back-to-back on track, in the wind tunnel, and on the dyno.

I think Honda was also involved. To do a complete remap of the ECUs of half a dozen cars or thereabouts from the two camps by their respective tuning partners, wasn't practical at such short notice (it was mandated at the actual race meeting, from memory). Drivers were actually lifting and short-shifting to avoid going beyond the new maximum boost pressure.

Under normal TCR-sanctioned competition, it's only the minimum ride height and weight that are adjusted throughout the season. In comparision to Supercars, they do as much as they can to get the recipie right at the start of the year. If a manufacturer isn't showing their full hand, or are perhaps foxing, the catagory has ways of evening things out.

"Look over there"

[Umai Naa]

[Jerico]

I know it's a little off topic as I'm suppose to be slinging stuff at the Ford boy's Not a Ford hater just feel SOME of the Ford fans ride the highs and lows a little more than most others. Owned-own fords, built fords and raced fords so don't paint us all with the red brush MR Capri

Remember the AU was breaking the rear rails when running full fuel loads in endurance mode. Their rails were extremely light. When the BA came out they had gone to very large rear rails, like massively bigger. No bending there.

[gtcapri]

Originally Posted by Mixer

There was never a parity issue with the AU, it was just a sack of crap. The front splitter was completely flawed and you couldn't run over a blade of grass without losing the entire front splitter. Only fixed by grafting the bottom of the VT splitter to it. Also you strangely ignore the AU running a second faster the next year in the Dunlop series... The car was fine after the splitter change, but the teams at the time could never get on top of it.

Then SBR came out after it and thumped everybody with their BA.

if Ford hadn't coughed up 888, Ford would have won just about everything for the last 15 years, and the blame for that wholely rests at Ford's feet. 888 has dominated more or less since their entry, and dominated for longer than DJR, HRT or SBR were able to in their respective tenures. Maybe we're seeing another one of those changes now.



How about the Hyundais having their boost cut and being disqualified from quali a while back, imagine that happening in Supercars?

The AU's proposed front splitter and what they fumbled with were two different beasts. Even Tony Cochrane admitted on V8 Superstars that they got the parity of the AU wrong. Grafting the Commodore splitter on did little. Check the 2002 results. The AU had to run ridiculous camber compared to the Commodore which is why they only good in qualifying and a few early race laps. The Stones claimed they milked what they had with the AU as much as they could. The BA in Blueprint form the following season was a better homlogated beast.

The AU got the 30mm that was originally trimmed back when they went to the development series.

'If' isnt really relevant. Doesn't matter if the Ford/888 that scenario had played out both sides would still be screaming parity. HRT would still be fumbling around and BJR or Erebus would be the kings of the Holden. Much like now. Swings and roundabouts. But your right. DJR are on the ascendancy to be the best team out there, 888 are losing their crown as kings of the series. 888 had the best funding and best technical resources, now it's DJR/Penske.

Hyundais getting their boost cut is probably similar to them as whats happening in this series is to Holden/Nissan and Ford. We're probably agreeing here but from different approaches.



Anyone in the mood for a James Phelps bedtime story?
From todays Daily Telegraph

This is the multimillion dollar wind tunnel that has Holden fearing the flogging from the Ford Mustang will continue.

Despite being slapped down with a bombshell go-slow order after the Fords were ruled to be unfairly fast, the Mustangs domination over the Commodore could continue following the revelation that DJR/Team Penske have their very own wind tunnel.

While Holden backed teams are forced to rely on computer programs to predict the Commodore’s aerodynamic efficiency, the Mustang can be accurately tested and adjusted in a state of the art wind tunnel owned by DJR/Team Penske billionaire Roger Penske.



Located in North Carolina, USA, and operated by the Penske Technology Group (PTG), the 50 per cent scale model wind tunnel was used to help design the Ford that was this week proved to be too fast by a Supercars test.

Supercars do not even have access to a wind tunnel to test the parity of the three makes – Holden, Ford and Nissan.

“The PTG Wind Tunnel is a commercially available open jet wind tunnel for the testing of 40 per cent to 50 per cent scale models,’’ said the PTG website.

“The tunnel provides a moving ground plane and boundary layer to accurately simulate real word conditions.

“The tunnel is combined with a sophisticated control and data system to produce accurate, repeatable results in the minimum number of runs.

“A variety of advanced tools and methods are available to the customer to assist with their aerodynamic testing needs.’’

One of America’s richest men, Penske had helped transform the team formerly known as Dick Johnson Racing into a V8 juggernaut.



The allegiance with Penske has already delivered the team a Supercars championship with Scott McLaughlin breaking through to win his first title last year.

With American backing from both Ford and Penske, DJR/Team Penske this year unleashed the Mustang in what has so far proved to be an almost unbeatable addition to the V8 grid.

Having won all but one of this year’s 10 races, the Ford was this week revealed to be unfairly fast with Supercars ordering that aerodynamic changes be made to the Mustang in a bid to slow that all-conquering car down.

Ford said they were disappointed by the decision after Supercars approved the car for racing following a pre-season test.

“The Mustang is an advanced, state-of-the-art Supercar, designed and built within the rules of the series,” said Mark Rushbrook, Ford Performance’s Global Director of Motorsport.

“We are disappointed that we have had to make changes to the cars, however we respect the Supercars technical department and will comply.

“The changes to the Ford Mustang Supercar are specific to the rear wing and undertray. Most notably, the size of the rear-wing endplates will be reduced, while the Gurney flap will be reduced in height and undertray in length.

“We will make these changes ahead of the next round so we can quickly understand the affect they’ll have on Mustang to give us the best chance of maintaining our pace,” said Rushbrook.

“Mustang is run by some of the best teams in the series and that’s not technical parity, it is the sporting performance of the teams that race the car.”

Former Holden pilot Paul Morris took to social media to declared Ford’s domination could continue thanks to resources like the wind tunnel.

“Our car was signed off and homologated by Supercars ahead of the 2019 season, however whilst we understand these changes are in the interest of the sport, we expect to run the rest of the season on track unchanged from this specification.”
__________________

[Mixer]

So DJRTP never lied when they said they never put a Supercar in a wind tunnel... Nobody asked about a model

Anyway the mail I've heard from someone who really should know is that one of the things nobbled with the Mustang aero is designed in flexing, flattening out the rear wing, F1 style.

Now going to see deflection testing as standard in the series.

[johnh875]

Seamer is quoted saying the changes are transparent, but I have not seen any figures? Either to justify the changes (eg separating DJRTP performance vs some of the Holden backmarkers) or to quantify them.

[Mixer]

Perhaps transparent to the teams... Who in fan land is going to have the skills to understand this kind of data?

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

[Umai Naa]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Perhaps transparent to the teams... Who in fan land is going to have the skills to understand this kind of data?

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

According to the negativity on here and social media, a very, very select few.

[gtcapri]

Originally Posted by Jerico

I know it's a little off topic as I'm suppose to be slinging stuff at the Ford boy's Not a Ford hater just feel SOME of the Ford fans ride the highs and lows a little more than most others. Owned-own fords, built fords and raced fords so don't paint us all with the red brush MR Capri

Remember the AU was breaking the rear rails when running full fuel loads in endurance mode. Their rails were extremely light. When the BA came out they had gone to very large rear rails, like massively bigger. No bending there.

I was pointing out both sides whinge. The difference is what is perceived as constructive criticism by one side is perceived as whining from the other. Fans from both sides are guilty.

[gtcapri]

Originally Posted by Mixer

So DJRTP never lied when they said they never put a Supercar in a wind tunnel... Nobody asked about a model

Anyway the mail I've heard from someone who really should know is that one of the things nobbled with the Mustang aero is designed in flexing, flattening out the rear wing, F1 style.

Now going to see deflection testing as standard in the series.

Have they lied? It's a James Phelps story. Clever editing. He using the words 'could' and 'can'. Didn't say they did. All he's doing is stoking the fire with no evidence/proof or facts.