Why is Toyota such a mess?

[cds_uk]

Ok then, all kinds of drivers are being linked with a drive there, Massa being the latest in a long line but i am sure i am not alone in thinking it needs a bit more than that, no matter what we all think Ralf and Jarno are not total mugs, both race winners of course, and the car is capable of cropping up in the top 10 more often than not, the engine is not to shabby, the budget is second to none so why are they no nearer to winning than when they first arrived, more to the point why can nobody at Toyota see it and put it right, is it purely down to there not being a big name technical director in place, come on guys, what would you all do to put it right.

[Patrick Fletche]

Originally Posted by cds_uk

Ok then, all kinds of drivers are being linked with a drive there, Massa being the latest in a long line but i am sure i am not alone in thinking it needs a bit more than that, no matter what we all think Ralf and Jarno are not total mugs, both race winners of course, and the car is capable of cropping up in the top 10 more often than not, the engine is not to shabby, the budget is second to none so why are they no nearer to winning than when they first arrived, more to the point why can nobody at Toyota see it and put it right, is it purely down to there not being a big name technical director in place, come on guys, what would you all do to put it right.

In Japanese culture you need consensus of all the management to reach a decision and implement it. In an F1 season there are millions of decisions to be made. So their whole decision making process is too unwieldy to work.
A successful F1 team needs an authoritative dictator in order for it to work. This has been proven repeatedly in history. Even if he gets many things wrong the fact that decisions are being made quickly more than compensates.

[Dennis.Doyle]

Excellent question. Why a management that has achieved world domination in road cars can't manage a **** up in a brewery in F1 baffles me.

You're dead right, a driver won't turn it around on his own, but with the help of Todt senior the Ferrari model might work - how long was their drought prior to his appointment?

My advice? Pay McLaren's fine in return for some management consultancy.

[Graz]

Originally Posted by Patrick Fletche

In Japanese culture you need consensus of all the management to reach a decision and implement it. In an F1 season there are millions of decisions to be made. So their whole decision making process is too unwieldy to work.
A successful F1 team needs an authoritative dictator in order for it to work. This has been proven repeatedly in history. Even if he gets many things wrong the fact that decisions are being made quickly more than compensates.

Very true. They have to move away from the 'Japanese Way' to the way that works. They need to do what Ferrari did in the early to mid nineties and put no-nonsense guys in place to lead from the front. Who is out there though who could do this for them?

[FPV GTHO]

When you look at a team like McLaren, Ron Dennis would get the nod from Martin Whitmarsh and things would happen. At Toyota it would go through the team principle, Toyota motorsport CEO, Toyota F1 CEO, Toyota F1 Bridgestone liason, Toyota F1 consultant....I think you get the picture.

[JeremySmith]

It is impossible to run a F1 team that is based in Cologne by a committee that is based in Japan..

[Dennis.Doyle]

Didn't they win the Le Mans & the WRC that way? Maybe that's the mistake, they are confused developing a sports prototype for rallies but entering it in F1?

[FPV GTHO]

I didnt think they won LeMans. WRC though has a much slower development rate than F1.

[RotorFan]

Mazda is the only Japanese manufacturer to have won Le Mans.


Couldn't help myself...

[Mr V]

Lack of passion, lack of ambition, oh, and Ralf and Jarno don't help either

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by Dennis.Doyle

My advice? Pay McLaren's fine in return for some management consultancy.

Ron in charge of HR?
Mike in charge of intercompay communications?

Seriously though having worked for a Japanese (Electronics) company they are perfectionists. Won't let anything out of R&D until it is perfect. Result in F1 is that the whole game has moved on by the time that happens.
In a consumer product that is the way I like things I am going to buy to be.

[Ralf's Girl]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Won't let anything out of R&D until it is perfect.

I don't think that's happening with Toyota, there's not much perfection coming out of there.

Toyota's problem, as plenty of people have already pointed out, is their management: I think the people at the races are bearing the brunt of the criticism and that's not fair, because it's impossible to turn a team's fortunes around without a clear management structure, made up of knowledgeable people. Do the people running Toyota's F1 operation actually know what it takes to succeed in the sport? It seems to me that when something goes wrong they just throw money at it in the hope that it will just go away. I've been saying all season that it doesn't matter who drives the car, if there's a problem at the very top then the team won't get the results that their investment indicates they should.

[MrTTraces]

Why is Toyota in such a mess?

Don't know, Why IS Toyota in such a mess?




....Awaiting punch line.....

[Last2LiftOff]

Because it's a lot harder than it looks. The term entropy comes to mind.

Sorry Mr. T, no punch line.

[ajrichar]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Lack of passion, lack of ambition, oh, and Ralf and Jarno don't help either

While Ralf and Jarno perhaps aren't the most balls-out steerers going around, I think it is unfair to say that the team "lacks passion" and "ambition."

I think if you put it to every person on the factory floor at Cologne they'd tell you how much they want to win, how desperate they are to achieve in F1. They are ambitious - perhaps too much so at the beginning in 2001/02, and they are arguably still paying the price for that ambition now. Not learning to crawl before you walk, not learning to walk before you run, not learning to run before you win races..... They have bene trying to hobble without learning to crawl first.

But if you want to see just how badly Toyota's personnel want to win, look at how delirious with excitement and pride they were when they got their first podium with a 2nd place with Jarno in Malaysia in 2005.

I admit that I am a supporter of Toyota (please don't turn on me), and I agree that Toyota do not have the requisite management structure in place to respond with the speed that F1 demands. In fact they are deficient in so many areas that you can identify that Ferrari, Renault and McLaren all have. I don't subscribe to this rubbish that you need to be in England to succeed in F1 - Ferrari have proven that to be a complete furphy and BMW are doing very nicely out of Hinwill thankyou very much.

But despite the mega budget, the world class facilities and all the drive and desire in the world, they simply cannot make the steps to improve further up the field, let alone challenge for wins. My personal opinion (like many I've read) is that Toyota's philosophy is incompatible with the exigencies of a winning F1 outfit. All of the components on the shop floor are in place (the team engineers, mechanics, engine designers and builders, wind tunnel etc), but the key personnel balance is not right - the truly exceptionally gifted aerodynamists and chassis designers are in other teams. The aero is not working correctly, the mechanical grip isn't high enough (chassis deficiencies that are not getting the best from the Bridgestones), and the team doesn't have a Flavio, a Jean or a Ron to make an executive decision and muster the troops in one direction with the speed and clarity that each of those Team Principals has proven is the method that works and the method that brings F1 success. Toyota also need a tactician and drivers that can drive to lap times consistently across a GP to bring a result and not fall backwards during GPs to be passed by teams like Red Bull. The Brawn/Schumacher team at Ferrari was simply irresistable and epitomised that formula better than any I can think of. Michael winning at Magny Cours after 5 stops? You wouldn't have thought it possible.....

Toyota's drivers unfortunately aren't of the top gun calibre required to win World titles, although Jarno is handy in qualifying. But they always drift backwards in races and a promising qualifying will inevitably result in a non-points finish. As a Toyota fan that is incredibly depressing..... However, recently the drivers are finishing reasonably closely together which suggests they are both getting similar performance out of the car. The drivers can only do so much with an average car and I am reminded of that wonderfully colloquial saying - 'you can't polish a turd.'

The Kaizen principle may shave vital tenths off pitstops by economising every action from every pit member during a pitstop, but it just doesn't work as a corporate philosophy when applied to team direction and team management. And Toyota are let down by the 'decision by committee' approach that means that the grid has moved on one and a half steps when they have made one step forward....

[BootsOntheSide]

Toyota (and probably Honda to an extent) have too many crucial racing decisions made by non-racing people. Coupled with the length of time everything takes, and the lack of a hungry young driver keen to prove himself, it's not really surprising that Williams are outscoring them on a fraction of the budget. The Toyota programme has been a wasteful embarassment from the start. Currently all the major car manufacturers other than VW/Audi are involved in F1, and it's hard to see where Toyota have gained any marketing kudos from such minimal results. A desperate change of approach is needed, perhaps as a final roll of the dice before calling it quits if things don't improve.

[FPV GTHO]

I wouldnt be surprised if Toyota have gained quite alot from their failure so far in F1. They build simple, reliable and cheap cars for those people who only require that from a car. They can simply mention "F1 Inspired" for something and they'll have most unknowing people believing theyve got a credible sports model.

[1200Datto27]

The really need to go back to the old TTE format that was in place under Ove Anderssen, that worked because it didn't have the massive oversight (from what I have read Toyota Japan essentially just signed the cheques) that the F1 team does.

[chillibowl]

i'll start by saying that Toyota, for a number of reasons already mentioned, are not doing anything of importance in F1.

but in all honesty, in the current pecking order of successful F1 teams, what teams do people believe Toyota should be beating?

all of the teams ahead of them have direct ties (by that i mean supplying more than just engines) in F1 for considerably longer than Toyota. even Red Bull with its factory and chassis development goes back as far as Stewart (maybe further back than that even?).

whereas Toyota have only 6-7 years worth of intellectual property knowledge to draw upon. thats nothing compared to their competitors.

institutional memory and knowledge are vastly important assets and is something money cant buy. it helps, but it is no substitute for time and experience.

[f1manoz]

Simple:

Too many cooks spoil the broth.

Toyota need to put one man in charge to lead the ship. They also need to hire two drivers capable of developing a race winning car, and who won't be satisfied with dawdling around in 12th place every weekend.

[Gt_R]

Hire Brawn, Alonso and Massa, in other words?

[WebberForWDC]

They simply need to go poaching the management of other teams.

And bring in winning structure and approach used there.

Problem solvered eh?

Good work ten-tenths!

Timed for Toyota to get poaching and send BMW or McLaren to backmarker land with mass migration of staff! Good stuff.

[Gt_R]

Don't suggest that... next thing you know, Toyota will buy BMW, Mclaren AND Renault teams just to get legally take over not only their people, but their data too!

[Marbot]

I feel another "Spygate" coming on.

[JeremySmith]

NO you don't..