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Old 20 May 2018, 22:53 (Ref:3823657)   #31
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Originally Posted by FormulaFox View Post
First of all, I'm not using stages as a reason for the decline. I'm using it as an example of something that has been genuinely widely despised from the start, whereas the Chase was not.

That said, I am well aware that the gimmicks I note most people don't like came to be AFTER the Chase was implemented. That is, after all, my entire point; The Chase predates the decline by four years, but most of the most widely hated gimmicks do not.

When you push most people to be more detailed than "The Chase" in detailing what they don't like about NASCAR, they tend to not cite any issue with the idea Chase, but the numerous gimmicks that came along AFTER the Chase was implemented - though these gimmicks are oftentimes some of the changes to how Chase positions are earned, they are far from exclusive to the complaints. "Get rid of the Chase" is frequently used as shorthand for a bunch of smaller gimmicks that are sometimes, but not always, a change that was made to the Chase subsequent to it's implementation.
First of all and only of all, you continue to mention gimmicks as an issue, which is exactly what the Chase is but it's not an issue because you've talked to the most people, right?
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Old 20 May 2018, 23:17 (Ref:3823660)   #32
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Originally Posted by fieldodreams79 View Post
First of all and only of all, you continue to mention gimmicks as an issue, which is exactly what the Chase is but it's not an issue because you've talked to the most people, right?

No, gimmicks are NOT an issue; Racing(and sports in general to be frank) are just a series of gimmicks tied together. It's SPECIFIC gimmicks that are the problem.

I haven't talked to "the most" people, but I've talked to a VERY wide array of people and gotten a very different set of responses than you have. Whatever the reason for it is irrelevant; Based on everything I've seen, the Chase is NOT the issue people here are making it out to be.
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Old 20 May 2018, 23:55 (Ref:3823666)   #33
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Originally Posted by FormulaFox View Post
No, gimmicks are NOT an issue; Racing(and sports in general to be frank) are just a series of gimmicks tied together. It's SPECIFIC gimmicks that are the problem.
A specific gimmicks that started with the original specific gimmick called "THE CHASE"? Thanks for making my point.

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I haven't talked to "the most" people, but I've talked to a VERY wide array of people and gotten a very different set of responses than you have. Whatever the reason for it is irrelevant; Based on everything I've seen, the Chase is NOT the issue people here are making it out to be.
BUT you HAVE talked to ALL the right people, apparently. I like how ALL CAPS make one's POINTS seem more valid.
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Old 21 May 2018, 00:14 (Ref:3823668)   #34
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Originally Posted by fieldodreams79 View Post
A specific gimmicks that started with the original specific gimmick called "THE CHASE"? Thanks for making my point.
No, I didn't prove your point in any way shape or form - it's rather interesting that you accuse me of "spinning" the matter then go and do exactly that to try and twist my point to your own ends.

But if you're going to continue to actively ignore my point, then so be it - it doesn't change what I actually said, and we've let this digression last too long, anyway.
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Old 21 May 2018, 00:40 (Ref:3823669)   #35
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Originally Posted by FormulaFox View Post
No, I didn't prove your point in any way shape or form - it's rather interesting that you accuse me of "spinning" the matter then go and do exactly that to try and twist my point to your own ends.

But if you're going to continue to actively ignore my point, then so be it - it doesn't change what I actually said, and we've let this digression last too long, anyway.
Ignoring your point that the Chase has nothing to do with the decline? Give me a break. I've provided PLENTY of thoughts contrary yours and you've merely restated your SAME statements with differing terms and false narratives about ME personally. Then, per your usual, YOU state something about how WE have digressed too long.
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Old 21 May 2018, 01:27 (Ref:3823673)   #36
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Originally Posted by fieldodreams79 View Post
Ignoring your point that the Chase has nothing to do with the decline? Give me a break. I've provided PLENTY of thoughts contrary yours and you've merely restated your SAME statements with differing terms
All I have done is point out how different the things I've seen have been, and you've repeatedly tried to claim that it can't be true solely because you've encountered different opinions.

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and false narratives about ME personally.
Completely untrue. I have not made any false "narratives" about you or anyone else - you're trying to twist my statements yet again.

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Then, per your usual, YOU state something about how WE have digressed too long.
Yes, WE have. You're just as guilty of dragging it out as I am.
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Old 21 May 2018, 01:58 (Ref:3823676)   #37
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Originally Posted by FormulaFox View Post
All I have done is point out how different the things I've seen have been, and you've repeatedly tried to claim that it can't be true solely because you've encountered different opinions.
Sure have a differing opinion, but when you're countered, try a different point rather than saying the same thing over and over with differing terms. This is how you get caught in this stupid back n forth always.

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Completely untrue. I have not made any false "narratives" about you or anyone else - you're trying to twist my statements yet again.
Sure you have. You have made false statements about how my opinion was formed and informed me of how to properly form the most accurate opinion, like yours.

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Yes, WE have. You're just as guilty of dragging it out as I am.
Nice use of bold, italics and caps there. I guess it's true to be us both!
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Old 21 May 2018, 02:12 (Ref:3823679)   #38
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Sure have a differing opinion, but when you're countered, try a different point rather than saying the same thing over and over with differing terms. This is how you get caught in this stupid back n forth always.

Keep laughing - it's only proving that you've been actively ignoring my points, and you're only proving that you too are guilty of dragging this out as well.


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Sure you have. You have made false statements about how my opinion was formed and informed me of how to properly form the most accurate opinion, like yours.

False. You made a comment that I misinterpreted as implying you limited yourself to the people around you, and I explained why that's a poor idea. You then elaborated that you didn't limit yourself to the people immediately around you, and I at no point after that asserted differently. While I still commented on the wide ranges of people I've talked to in forming my opinion, I at no point after your elaboration claimed or implied you were doing differently.


If you genuinely consider misinterpretation to be the same as "making false statements," then there's no point in continuing any form of debate, as you will be able to cast any disagreement as such and I refuse to engage in debates under such circumstances.



Quote:
Nice use of bold, italics and caps there. I guess it's true to be us both!

You haven't made any attempt to get back on topic, so yes, you are as guilty as I am no matter how much you want to deny it, and criticizing my use of emphasis instead of trying to refute the assertion only reinforces this fact.
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Old 21 May 2018, 02:28 (Ref:3823681)   #39
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Originally Posted by FormulaFox View Post
Keep laughing - it's only proving that you've been actively ignoring my points, and you're only proving that you too are guilty of dragging this out as well.





False. You made a comment that I misinterpreted as implying you limited yourself to the people around you, and I explained why that's a poor idea. You then elaborated that you didn't limit yourself to the people immediately around you, and I at no point after that asserted differently. While I still commented on the wide ranges of people I've talked to in forming my opinion, I at no point after your elaboration claimed or implied you were doing differently.


If you genuinely consider misinterpretation to be the same as "making false statements," then there's no point in continuing any form of debate, as you will be able to cast any disagreement as such and I refuse to engage in debates under such circumstances.






You haven't made any attempt to get back on topic, so yes, you are as guilty as I am no matter how much you want to deny it, and criticizing my use of emphasis instead of trying to refute the assertion only reinforces this fact.
I'd like to be the first to congratulate you on trying to stay on topic so rigidly, and apologize to you and all the others for steering us so far off course. Please elaborate and provide more valuable insight on how the looks of the cars will improve the series so.
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Old 21 May 2018, 02:39 (Ref:3823683)   #40
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I'd like to be the first to congratulate you on trying to stay on topic so rigidly, and apologize to you and all the others for steering us so far off course. Please elaborate and provide more valuable insight on how the looks of the cars will improve the series so.
Despite the obvious sarcasm, I'll nonetheless note that I did not, and have never said, that the looks of the car will improve the series. They're one aspect that can help attract some eyeballs, but I never make a big deal out of aesthetics alone.

Yes, even in THIS matter, where I have already and will in the future make some statements that seem to imply differently, it actually just happens to be a case where the technical changes I feel are needed(lower, wider cars most specifically) happens to line up with an aesthetic style that would be an added bonus.

To my immediate recollection there is only ONE case in the entirety of motorsports where I believe a purely aesthetic change is needed - and even then it's more due to the issues of the series' identity and marketability than the actual aesthetics of the cars in and of itself.
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Old 21 May 2018, 17:18 (Ref:3823798)   #41
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I agree with the comment about NASCAR over expanding in the 2000's especially. Races are too long as well. Indycar does fine with 200 mile races. Also too many caution flags.

The only series that should have long races is IMSA. I'm a sportscar fan more than anything else and we complain about the races having too many safety car periods a lot!

NASCAR should at least consider going back to the original Chase format that as used for the first time. 10 drivers and 10 races. But the best idea is a full season championship again.
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Old 22 May 2018, 00:43 (Ref:3823868)   #42
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While we're on the topic, NASCAR's two lower national series (Xfinity and Camping World Truck Series) are kind of a mess. The TV numbers are still okay, but attendance and sponsorship are a problem.

From a Sport Business Daily article from back in October:
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It costs about $6 million to run a top Xfinity Series car per season, a figure that JR Motorsports executive Joe Mattes thinks needs to come down to $4 million to $5 million in order to keep teams better afloat. It costs about $4 million to $5 million to run a top Truck Series entry, a figure that Keselowski says should be closer to $2 million to $2.5 million.

Some observers have called for a re-evaluation of the sport’s split of television money. While teams get 25 percent of the $820 million annually that goes into the sport from Fox Sports and NBC Sports, the two lower-tier series get only a small percentage of the total.
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Old 22 May 2018, 01:50 (Ref:3823871)   #43
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Well, part of the attendance problem is, if not ticket prices, the ramped-up prices at the hotels for race weekends, and that bubble definitely burst with the start of the recession in late 2008.

IndyCar oval races are 250 miles, at the short end, currently. Road courses run 200-225 miles; I wouldn't mind Road America going from 55 to 60 laps even. Their street circuit races, apart from St. Petersburg, run 150-180 miles; I think Toronto should come up to 90 laps, and St. Petersburg down to 100.

I'm not sure how you convince the locals that shortening their race isn't a demotion, and that could definitely be a sticky issue for NASCAR, particularly at those two (really) short tracks.

As for the Chase, I can say that the people around here, even just listening to casual conversation around various places, weren't in favor of it from the time it was announced. It just seemed like a way for them to try and recapture some of that magic from the 1992 season finale. And as the Chase is the root of this stuff, and all those gimmicks subsequently added on to it, well, cut it out and remove the problem.
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Old 22 May 2018, 18:38 (Ref:3824034)   #44
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OK, so the race lengths is just me then! Must make more effort to not doze off. Age and being east of the Atlantic (so races late in the day) are my excuses and I'm sticking to 'em!

The aero at All Star looked to be responsible for the 88 losing it to me... or was there a subtle driver error I didn't register?
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