[Multi 21] Are Team Orders Racing?

[Nicholosophy]

Once upon a time, when a lead driver's car was taken out of the race for one reason or another they would call in a teammate and swap him out of the car and put the leading driver back in.

To suggest that team orders, or putting one team member before others, is a new thing is quite erroneous.

[formerf1champ]

Team orders are fine, there just has to be a certain tact when they're applied. F1Pete made the distinction. Similiar to what he posted.

[GT6]

At one time it would have been very difficult to outlaw team orders, with todays technology it is much easier to spot and penalise, however we must consider what is more important, the drivers title or the constructors. Unfortunately by bigging up the drivers we have caused this problem ourselves.

[Escort TC]

Team order, yes. But after the 1. Lap. Its very funny.
Racing is the quickest win. A Team is nothing without a quick Driver.
Formula 1 isnt racing and Motorsport. It is advertising.
I think I will no longer watch Formula 1.

[chavez]

Eventually the question of team orders will be taken out of the sports hands.

Recently in Victoria, legislation has been introduced to criminalise match fixing.

Clearly team orders in motor sport is an attempt to fix or manipulate the results of the race.

It has long been part of the sport and many people believe it is okay, but those outside of the sport who often don't understand the sport will eventually come to the conclusion (rightly or wrongly) that team orders is just another form of match fixing and will act through various parliaments or even the EU to stopping the practice.

[dirtymacca]

Originally Posted by chavez

Eventually the question of team orders will be taken out of the sports hands.

Recently in Victoria, legislation has been introduced to criminalise match fixing.

Clearly team orders in motor sport is an attempt to fix or manipulate the results of the race.

It has long been part of the sport and many people believe it is okay, but those outside of the sport who often don't understand the sport will eventually come to the conclusion (rightly or wrongly) that team orders is just another form of match fixing and will act through various parliaments or even the EU to stopping the practice.

Well said and that is what the point I was making..... Team orders is game changing = not the true spirit of racing.

Lets face it motorsport is the same as other sports that have questionable reputations when outside influences affect the result!

It is all about the MONEY!

[Paradise City]

They could keep/ban team orders and I wouldn't much care. Team orders are a part of a multifaceted sport and racing takes place on numerous levels. On the track, between the drivers and between the teams, off-the track, in the design room and in the commercial world. All of that is an essential part of the ingredients necessary for ultimate victory. But if they want to ban TO, they can do that and let it be an underground thing.

Another way of tackling it is by limiting F1 teams to a single car and allowing 11 other teams to participate. I appreciate though it'd never happen as it would require the established teams to give up too much of their interests.

[IceMan_PJN]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

So is it the same people that castrate Vettel for passing Webber the same ones that call Rosberg a wuss for NOT passing Hamilton? Or would Rosberg have been equally ripped to pieces by everyone if he didn't obey Brawn? It's the same situation though, Rosberg obeyed, although did sit right up his rear throughout the stint and voiced his displeasure, while Vettel said to hell with it and took the win.

I'm glad I'm not the only person that noticed this. Everyone hated on Vettel for disobeying team orders and passing his teammate but everyone wanted Rosberg to disobey orders and pass his teammate. It's a double-standard, and I hate those.

It's cool to hate Vettel so the cool kids didn't want him ignoring orders and passing, but it's cool to hate Hamilton so the cool kids wanted Rosberg to disobey orders and pass him.

[Escort TC]

Or take Formula 1 for what it is. No racing, no motorsport.

[davyboy]

I made this post on another thread... but it's probably more appropriate here.

Here's an interesting take on things. I was trying to explain the background behind what happened on Sunday to a 'lay person' last night. My friend asked me this... Is it a bit like the head coach of Jamaica telling Usain Bolt to let Yohan Blake win the 200m so that he would be in better shape to win the 100m himself... as all that mattered was that Team Jamaica came away with two golds ? I said yes, that's essentially what it was... but that he needed to understand that because the teams had millions vested in their F1 campaigns, the on track driver battles had to take a back seat to the team result... whether that be contrived or not. In that case he said, there shouldn't be such a thing as a drivers championship, only a teams championship.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by F1Pete

I don't mind team orders when it is late in the season and one guy is closer to the championship than the other. This is only the second race! Total BS!!!!

In this case the team orders were about car/tyre preservation rather than the drivers championship. If the drivers were going to have a full blooded battle it could have resulted in both in the gravel or a car/tyre problem that would lose the race for the team as they wanted 43 points not zero.

It will be interesting to see the long term implications of these team order situations and how it will affect them in the long term, it one remembers the situation at McLaren in 2007.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by davyboy

In that case he said, there shouldn't be such a thing as a drivers championship, only a teams championship.

Good point.

[Marbot]

Ecclestone has his say.

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/189295/...iver_feud.html

The teams would do well to take note.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by IceMan_PJN

I'm glad I'm not the only person that noticed this. Everyone hated on Vettel for disobeying team orders and passing his teammate but everyone wanted Rosberg to disobey orders and pass his teammate. It's a double-standard, and I hate those.

It's cool to hate Vettel so the cool kids didn't want him ignoring orders and passing, but it's cool to hate Hamilton so the cool kids wanted Rosberg to disobey orders and pass him.

Please don't use the word 'everyone' when that is simply not the case. I personally think Vettel was wrong and Rosberg was right. Had Rosberg overtaken, I would think he was WRONG is just the same way as I think Vettel was wrong.

Whether I am a cool kid, well who knows?

[littleman]

Is it just possible that Red Bull have been too clever in the past with driver instructions?

The only thing that possibly explains Vettel's decision is misinterpretation of the instructions?

He would know radio messages were monitored, so maybe he thought the team were telling him to do the exact opposite of what they were actually saying?

It was only when the race had finished that he realised they REALLY DID mean hold your position?

Perhaps that's why he said he'd cocked-up and it wasn't deliberate?

He appears far too bright to just blatantly stick two fingers up.....?

[Marbot]

Whatever your thoughts about it are, implementing team orders in the second race out of nineteen only makes the people who watch other sports more convinced that F1 is fixed if the whole point of it is to find out who the best driver is. They know enough about F1 to know that no one really gives a damn about which team wins it, and only about which driver wins it. 2012 was a good example of that (Who was overcome with joy when the soft drinks manufacturer won the constructors championship, again? Can you even remember which race it was at?). The number of driver threads on this forum is a good example of that (Hamilton vs Rosberg, etc).

Premiere league football is all about which team wins it and not about which player scores the most goals. Therefore, it is truly a team sport. You can find other examples in sport of whole teams benefiting just the one team player (cycling, etc), but those are equally puzzling to those who watch soccer, cricket, hockey, rugby, etc.

Please note that I'm all for team orders in F1 if they are legal.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Marbot

2012 was a good example of that

2008 was THE example of that!

[VIVA GT]

Team orders aren't racing (to answer the original question). Racing is where everyone drives as fast as possible for the whole race (without crashing or breaking the car - I'll come back to this point later), and the fastest driver therefore wins the race.
It is however in the best interest of the team that both cars finish the race (especially if they're first and second), and as asking the drivers to hold position (or however you want to word this) should prevent them from crashing (into each other?) of breaking the car(s), this is also in the best interests of the team.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Team orders aren't racing (to answer the original question). Racing is where everyone drives as fast as possible for the whole race (without crashing or breaking the car - I'll come back to this point later), and the fastest driver therefore wins the race.
It is however in the best interest of the team that both cars finish the race (especially if they're first and second), and as asking the drivers to hold position (or however you want to word this) should prevent them from crashing (into each other?) of breaking the car(s), this is also in the best interests of the team.

Agreed. But it's only in the best interest of the team from a purely financial position. Were Ross Brawn and Adrian Newey cringing because they thought that their drivers were throwing a drivers championship away, or because they could see them throwing their own end of year CVC bonus payments away?

Answer that question and you will find out if F1 is a sport or a business model.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Team orders aren't racing (to answer the original question).

This the only answer to that question I'm afraid. Team orders neutralize a race in a similar way to a safety car.

There are ways of reconfiguring Formula One such that team orders wouldn't be necessary... and that would be a better approach than trying to make them illegal - something that doesn't work.

[Marbot]

Doing away with the drivers championship would be the only way. But surely that is the most important championship, and all of this 'it's a team sport' stuff we're hearing is merely a cover for the fact that FOM bonus payments are really the greatest prize in F1?

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Doing away with the drivers championship would be the only way. But surely that is the most important championship, and all of this 'it's a team sport' stuff we're hearing is merely a cover for the fact that FOM bonus payments are really the greatest prize in F1?

Or you could do away with the team championship. Give all teams the same share of the TV funding... and give the drivers big prize money for winning races and championships.

[Hesketh]

No, they are not, not at this stage of the season.

[JamesH]

Is it me or are people moving away from what actually happened (as I understand it).

Webber was told to turn his engine down to preserve fuel and the engine, since the team thought that's how the positions would stay if nothing was done. He was told that Vettel would not overtake him. Vettel took advantage of Webber's low power engine and caught and overtook him, whilst under strict order not too. Had Webber NOT turned his engine down, in all likelihood, Vettel would not have been able to overtake him, OR, they would have driven like the Merc's did for a while - over take under DRS, get overtaken back under DRS (with associated risk of touching and losing constructor points)

The point being, Vettel overtook Webber while his engine was turned down. That's NOT RACING. That, as I've said before, is taking candy from a baby, and has NO redeeming qualities whatsoever.

If I have any facts wrong, please enlighten me.

[GORDON STREETER]

Although Mark is obviously a very good racer he knows that he is in his twilight years in F1 and in a top team.
I would think that he has made a fair bit of money whilst being at Red Bull and up till now has "bitten his tongue" a few times, however after this latest fiasco he could well change his attitude this year !