[Official] Round 13 - Italian Grand Prix

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Marbot

He was pushed onto the grass by Kovalainen (see race start again). Which, judging by subsequent events, seems to have been a perfectly acceptable thing to do.

Was he??

Looked more like he got a blinder of a start and then spent the rest of the straight attempting to reign it in!

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Was he??

Looked more like he got a blinder of a start and then spent the rest of the straight attempting to reign it in!

Nah! He was on the grass when he lost control of the car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SdN_5ohuiI&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_xunQh9XyQ

[Ralf's Girl]

Liuzzi was out of control from the minute he left his grid slot - on the first video, he's weaving all over the place, then he goes off the track trying to pass Kovalainen (he isn't squeezed, he's just trying to drive around him), comes back inside the white lines to find that there are cars in the space he's trying to drive into, goes back onto the grass and then loses it completely. Not deliberate, but clumsy and totally, 100% his fault. He should man up and take the blame instead of trying to pass the buck.

[Marbot]

Maybe. But you can't blame him for trying to get past slower cars in an HRT.

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Nah Button's nowhere near Hamilton's talent imo. Button's just having a really good run, whereas Hamilton has lost his confidence with all this media ****flinging and incidents. He'll be back.

Re Liuzzi... he made a mistake, tried to avoid the cars in front of him at the start and got on the grass and lost control. Just a complete mistake. It's not like he did it on purpose, so why would he deserve a race ban?

What's on purpose is when a driver forces another driver onto the grass in a high speed corner when they're racing inches apart, in order to keep his position. It didn't result in a crash, but if it did Alonso would surely be at fault in a move that isn't just a pure mistake like Liuzzi made. Yes i'm talking about Vettel vs Alonso not MS vs LH. With regard to those 2, many drivers would have turned in on LH there, he barely had his car up the inside. He should have gone to the outside like Vettel did - he had a lot more pace due to MS's shoddy exit from the first chicane.

To be fair to Alonso, he doesn't have a history of dirty driving, many times he's not fought when the car isn't up to it, look at Silverstone when Hamilton passed him. He tends to play the long term game. I honestly believe he moved over there to put Vettel off and to be defending the inside for the chicane coming up. I think that Vettel was carrying more speed than Alonso anticipated

[strider]

Look how Alonso gave Webber just enough room to complete that fabulous move Eau Rouge.

[herowassenna]

What does frustrate me is when journalists and the public make these crazy claims that drivers can't over-take.
All these guys have raced in maybe the toughest arena known to racers, i.e karting and been hugely successful on their way to F1.
Maybe their over-taking becomes more measured but they all have the skills necessary.
Unfortunately, the way I see it is that any dominant driver never has to attempt a passing manoeuvre because they usually lead.
How many times did Schumacher overtake in his WDC years? He usually waited for pit-stop strategy to play its part and won from there. Mansell IMO was one of the greatest over-takers I've ever seen but he didn't use much of that skill in 1992.
Senna was famed for his passing of backmarkers before the age of the blue flag rule. Even Button who has rightly been praised for his over-taking during the last 3 seasons for many years didn't show that kind of skill.

Regarding Schumi's 2 moves into Lesmo 1, well personally I didn't see anything wrong, his trajectory out of the chicane allowed him to position his car to stop Lewis getting up the inside, then without Lewis being alongside he moved across to the racing line.
Down to Ascari, he positioned himself on the left and moved across in front of Lewis before turn in, Button was alongside before this point, thus enabling the over-take.
Along the pit straight, he would be prepared for the inside of the next turn.
It's difficult because I've seen Schumi far more aggressive than that, but times have changed, the PC brigade has got it's teeth into F1 like everything else.
Considering how fundamentally safe the cars and circuits have become, you'd think they'd allow these "men" to sort it out themselves.

Thank God for bike racing

[Adam43]

I thought everyone was whinging that overtaking had gone from bike racing because power delivery was easier now.

[littleman]

I thought Schumacher provided a master class in defensive driving.He placed his car with pin-point accuracy and took the rules to the very edge.He gave Hamilton room but never more than a millimetre - quite brilliant.

How can I say this?

Well, both McLaren's eventually got by and neither of them had the slightest mark on them.

[WapFlap]

Originally Posted by littleman

I thought Schumacher provided a master class in defensive driving.He placed his car with pin-point accuracy and took the rules to the very edge.He gave Hamilton room but never more than a millimetre - quite brilliant.

How can I say this?

Well, both McLaren's eventually got by and neither of them had the slightest mark on them.

True, and I agree with you. Only, there is this rule in F1 that you can only change direction once. What Schumacher did was change his line more than once and that is not allowed. It is weird that there was no penalty involved, and I think its a stupid rule because those drivers should be good enough to overtake eachother without it imo.

[Razzzor]

Yeah Alonso of the past has been a really hard man to pass, but over the last couple seasons he's matured a bit and when his car doesn't have the pace, he hasn't put up a huge fight. Which is the better thing to do imo. MS & LH were losing lots of time, Massa was closing in. As soon as LH got past, Michael's lap times picked up and he started pulling away from Massa. Having said that, LH didn't really pull away all that much - he might even of held him off for the rest of the race if he kept defending as hard.

With Liuzzi, he ran across the grass strip and lost control there. I gotta admit Alonso ran over the same bit of grass and probably used even more of it than Liuzzi did, so my only guess is that Alonso was still at full steam therefore didn't lose it, while Liuzzi must have needed to crank the brakes on just as he hit the grass and returned to the track, because of everyone slowing up in front of him, and that's where he fishtailed and lost it. He just got caught out. I'd expect the same from half the Indycar field :P

[littleman]

This rule about only being allowed to change direction once was introduced to stop drivers weaving from side to side all the way down a straight.If a driver elects to exit a corner and take up a tight inside line all the way down the straight, then surely he should be allowed to switch back to the outside at the next corner so he get's the optimum turn in and braking.

In effect, he's then only moved once.His exit from the previous corner can hardly be described as "changing direction".He just decided that when exiting the corner, in one smooth move, he was going to run all the way down the straight on the inside.

In my view, that's exactly what Schumacher did.

[paddy]

Derek Daly says that Schumacher did block and should have been penalised. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mot...rand-Prix.html

[littleman]

Derek Daly simply says Schumacher's driving is "not the style you want future generations to perfect".

That doesn't mean he broke any rules and Daly agree's the scenario I painted in my previous post is a "grey area".

I think the picture in the newspaper demonstrates just how perfectly Schumacher was positioning his car.

In my view they should be looking at the inept Liuzzi and clumsy Webber.

[paddy]

Originally Posted by littleman

Derek Daly simply says Schumacher's driving is "not the style you want future generations to perfect".

That doesn't mean he broke any rules and Daly agree's the scenario I painted in my previous post is a "grey area".

I think the picture in the newspaper demonstrates just how perfectly Schumacher was positioning his car.

In my view they should be looking at the inept Liuzzi and clumsy Webber.

I think you need to read it again. The 2 quotes below are fairly conclusive.


“When I looked at it again at home I believe that Schumacher should have been given a drive-through penalty."
"We as stewards probably let Charlie down with this one.”

[Bononi]

I'm delighted to see that TGF continue to this day, being a controversial person in this forum ! He is good at it as he used to be back in the day

[Tathrim]

Originally Posted by Bononi

I'm delighted to see that TGF continue to this day, being a controversial person in this forum ! He is good at it as he used to be back in the day

That's cause TGF's successor is boring due to the lack of close fighting int he championship.

[Spritle]

Originally Posted by paddy

Derek Daly says that Schumacher did block and should have been penalised. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mot...rand-Prix.html

I'm surprised it took Derek so long to complain, he can't stand Schumacher.

I remember hearing him whinge constantly about Michael during his stint covering some races he worked for CBS during Schu's glory days at Ferrari. When I heard he was working Monza as a steward I was a bit surprised since I doubted his impartiality when it came to Schu.

Who's next on the guest steward list, JV?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Spritle

Who's next on the guest steward list, JV?

For the Singapore GP the FIA have acquired the services of a Mr J. Villeneuve; A Mr D. Hill; A Mr D. Coulthard; A Mr F. Briatore (winner of the 2008 FIA 'fair play' award), and one official FIA steward; A Mr. "DJ Ham Fan".

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

For the Singapore GP the FIA have acquired the services of a Mr J. Villeneuve; A Mr D. Hill; A Mr D. Coulthard; A Mr F. Briatore (winner of the 2008 FIA 'fair play' award), and one official FIA steward; A Mr. "DJ Ham Fan".

Briatore, really?

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Marbot

For the Singapore GP the FIA have acquired the services of a Mr J. Villeneuve; A Mr D. Hill; A Mr D. Coulthard; A Mr F. Briatore (winner of the 2008 FIA 'fair play' award), and one official FIA steward; A Mr. "DJ Ham Fan".

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Briatore, really?

You've got to be kidding...

[mattt]

Originally Posted by Marbot

For the Singapore GP the FIA have acquired the services of a Mr J. Villeneuve; A Mr D. Hill; A Mr D. Coulthard; A Mr F. Briatore (winner of the 2008 FIA 'fair play' award), and one official FIA steward; A Mr. "DJ Ham Fan".

Originally Posted by Bononi

You've got to be kidding...

Of course he is, there's no link

But rumour says it might be JV; heres a link, they've been so impressed with how engaged he's been with F1 this year

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Spritle

I'm surprised it took Derek so long to complain, he can't stand Schumacher.

I remember hearing him whinge constantly about Michael during his stint covering some races he worked for CBS during Schu's glory days at Ferrari. When I heard he was working Monza as a steward I was a bit surprised since I doubted his impartiality when it came to Schu.

Who's next on the guest steward list, JV?

Torpedo Jacques as a steward?

Judging from JV's Nationwide races Schuey could force half the field off the track and JV would need to be very cheeky to penalise him!

As for Daly he needs to remember that when he's a steward, he's not a pundit and stewards should keep the steward deliberations confidental.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Bononi

You've got to be kidding...

Mr Briatore never did quite get over Schumachers 'parking' incident.

I guess that it takes a cheat to know one.