Formula Atlantic etc (was 'Chevron B29s') - Page 16

Michael Oliver · 27 Nov 2004, 18:07 (Ref:1165732)

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
Michael

What I was thinking was that Coombs might have had a fourth car, number never noted in period, from the range of chassis where we don't know the original owner, [for example chassis 25] and that Depaillier might have driven this in addition to 45, which seems to have been the last 722 built. It appears first at Rouen 30.6.72 along with Williamson's 722-41, which we have confirmed as a chassis no, from other sources. Just a thought that the Coombs car might have been 722-42 [which then gives 24 as an easy misprint!]

The next reference I have for "45" is that an ex Depaillier 722 is being rebuilt for Alan Rollinson to run F.Atlantic in 1974. There is no chassis number attached to the report, and by that time the car would have been to 74B spec I guess, with full width nose, but side rads.
Rollinson is entered in a 'March' at Oulton, 5.5.74 but DNA
Qualifies 20th at Silverstone 12.5.74 where the car is described is 'ex Coombs/Depaillier', result not known
I don't have any other record of the car appearing with Rollinson, nor anything which might be that car in the hands of another driver.
[However, I am somewhat shy of programmes and race result sheets for mid season 74, so he may have carried on for a while. If someone out there has the British GP programme for 74 they could tell us whether or not he at least entered the Atlantic support race.] Some photos from Atlantic would also be great, I can scan and return!

Chris

I hear what you are saying - it is possible that it could be something like 722-42.

Did you have a date for when Ron Courtney bought his car maybe that was driven at some point by Depailler too? 722-4 to 722-24 is an easy typo too...

Is John Coombs still around? ISTR he lives in Monaco, doesn't he own a D-type that ran there in the historics a few years ago? Anybody with any contact details perchance?!

Michael

Bryan Miller · 1 Dec 2004, 02:56 (Ref:1168554)

Back on page 19 , when Adam Ferrington listed all his chassis numbers , he advised Bev Bond in Harry Stiller March 73B [ 74B U1 ]for the Oulton Park meeting 5/5/1974 .

This is very strange, as this should be 74B-12 , but as the entry is for a March 73B , not 74B , is this perhaps a ring -in , as I have a photo of what is probably this car , Ref. Autosport Feb. 28 1974 p. 18 , which shows Bev Bond in a spot of bother at Brands , '' in the car he campaingned briefly at the end of last year '', however it is all decked out in the Custom Made/ Harry Stiller racing colours.
At the Oulton Park meeting did they perhaps run this car instead of the 1974 car , due to the 74 car not having the side rad. long nose conversion completed.??

Chris ,this 74B-U1 chassis plate seems to have been fitted to all manner of Marchs , is this not a plate associated with Val Mussetti.?

What was the identity of this Bev Bond 73B. Any clues.

Bryan.

Chris Townsend · 1 Dec 2004, 05:21 (Ref:1168599)

Bryan

I agree it is odd, and have been puzzling over it since Adam published that information.
The U1 suffix on the plate simply means [I think] that it is a hors series development model. [There were often two of these, U1 and U2 for any works build run] One of Musetti's cars may have been 742-U1, but I'm beginning to think he just had a 742 tub and the actual plates, which probably were not attached to the cars, were for two far earlier models.

British teams often ended up with the U cars because they were cheap ways of getting a new car, since the works had already had considerable mileage out of them. [Both the kosher March 75Bs that appear in Britain, for example, are U cars - Derek Cook and Ray Mallock]

Chris

Bryan Miller · 1 Dec 2004, 10:00 (Ref:1168756)

Chris/Allen.

Adam's notes really have had me thinking , but not enough time to respond.

Allen. Re the Atlantic results 1975 U.K.
You have Brise in the same car all year i.e. 009 , not so ,
The report for the British G.P. in Autosport advises new car just finished the day before, albeit neither Brise or Gygax started .
The Monaco meeting for F3's the week before is stated in Autosport as having Brise in his converted Atlantic , which was reconverted the week after for Gygax for the British G.P. support Atlantic race.
Now Adam Ferrington advises ch. no. 020-F3.
Now that is an F3 tub under an F/Atlantic at theBritish G.P.

To recap at Monaco we had 3 x Modus to be concerned with,
one car for Danny Sullivan [ Works ]
one car for Gygax [ renta ]
one car for Brise [ converted Atlantic according to Autosport].
At the end of the weekend three things had happened.
1. Gygax did not qualify and his car was used to repair Sullivans , who had stuffed his up a tree .
2. so we then had a combination of two F3 cars used by Sullivan for the rest of the weekend
3. Brise's car tried to mount another car whilst disputing the lead in the final , so his car is also damaged to some degree.

Now the merry Modus lads get to drag these sorry cars back to the U.K. and get ready for the British G.P.

Autosport reports that Gygax's car at the G.P. is Brise's re-re-converted car , but Adam reports an F3 020 ch.no.
Certainly not 009 , and not as I expected M1-022-FA/75.

So it appears that the lads swapped bits around everywhere to get the cars mobile , this also allows the car to go to the Domingo brothers in Sth. Africa , in the works records to be reported as new 16 guage tub with ex Gygax running gear , ex Gygax what , F3 is my guess .
Meanwhile Brises G.P Atlantic car is reported as being finished the night before the race , is this a NEW car or a newly built up re-incarnation of a whole bunch of bits from the previous weekend.

What I am trying to say is 009 was not used by Brise all year in Atlantic , given the above he probably had as I said a long while ago 3 x seperate entities through 1975, as there is an even newer car appearing for him for mainly the Southern Organ rounds.This car going to David Purley for Macau G.P. I believe.

Chris , where did the Bev Bond 73B [ 74-U1 ] come from and go to ??

Bryan.

Hope the above makes some sort of sense ,

Dan Rear · 1 Dec 2004, 10:30 (Ref:1168818)

Chris, was Ray M's 75B really a 'kosher' car ? I thought it was based on the ex-Laffite 742. Didn't he keep this car thru' 76 after his 'adventures' with the wonderful Lola T450 ?

Chris Townsend · 1 Dec 2004, 19:13 (Ref:1169242)

Dan
Mallock began with 742-12 in 1975, ex Jacques Coulon
However, when everyone managed to hit poor Peter Williams in the Thruxton chicane in the F2 race it didn't do the car much good.
A new car was built up around 75B-U1 though whether or not it kept the 742-12 plate for carnet purposes is a moot point.
There is actually a letter in Autosport from one of Mallock's helpers explaining this situation later in 75, because the car is mis-identified.

Chris

Chris Townsend · 4 Dec 2004, 15:10 (Ref:1170646)

A very specific request concerning a Chevron B29.
[Unusual for this thread I know!]

Does anyone have an image of Hector Rebaque's Opert B29? Specifically as it ran in F2 in the early races of 1975, NOT in the Canadian Atlantic series later in the season. [Or anyone who remembers what colour it was]

Chris

speedreader · 6 Dec 2004, 08:57 (Ref:1172063)

Hi Chris. I am a first time user having just joined the forum but wanted to say hi as you have dug up a lot of info re Formula Pacific's that raced in New Zealand. In particular, mention was made of a Chevron that I was incorrectly linked to - the Chevron B29 of Redman / Oxton.
I did drive a Chevron previously raced by David Oxton but this was not a B29. David also built a new car from parts consisting of a B34 tub (no chassis number but I believe this to be a spare tub from Opert Racing) with modifications including March single post rear wing March side pods (similar to those of a 792) He called this car a Chevron B34+ and raced it with Pye sponsorship. I only competed in it a few times as sponsorship funding was difficult. It appeared firstly in red with Autex Industries sponsorship and then white with Racebred Clothing sponsorship. I think this car was then sold to John Wigston (via Kenny Smith) for John's daughter (Joanna) to race. John also owned an ex Keke Rosberg / Fred Opert Racing Chevron B34 and the ex Grant Campbell B39 (both of which were damaged at the time) He has since had the B39 running but I am not aware if the Rosberg car was ever repaired and also not sure if he owns any / all of these cars still.
Re the Chevron B29's, I believe all of the following NZ'ers had an association with a B29 but not sure if it was always the same car or where it went - John Nicholson, David Oxton, Grant Campbell, Eric Morgan.
Hope some of this helps.

speedreader · 6 Dec 2004, 09:40 (Ref:1172093)

Sorry Guys, I should have spent more time reading the 26 pages..... of info before sending my two bobs worth, you are well & truly past what I mention. Great work though, entertaining readin

David McKinney · 6 Dec 2004, 19:22 (Ref:1172712)

Welcome to the forum, SG
A surprising amount of NZ stuff gets posted here

Steve Wilkinson · 7 Dec 2004, 10:50 (Ref:1173294)

To return to the origins of this deeply interesting ramble through Formula Atlantic via the Southern Hemisphere; can anyone provide the chassis number for the following car:

2.3 Chevron-Hart B29 sprinted and hillclimbed by Stuart Harte in England

Stuart competed in from 1985 to 1987

Keep up the interesting thread as I lived through all of Formula Atlantics history.

Steve Wilkinson · 7 Dec 2004, 10:56 (Ref:1173300)

For information:

March 772P-U2 is currently in the hands of Jonathan Varley and is fitted with a 1.6 BDA. Jonathan continues to sprint and hillclimb the car.
Its previous owner was Alan Newton who had fitted a couple of different engine choices. Initially Alan ran it with the Formula Two 6 cylinder Abarth two litre unit. This was then replaced with a 3.5 litre Cosworth DFR. Before he sold the car as a roller to Jonathan.

Chris Townsend · 7 Dec 2004, 15:56 (Ref:1173554)

Steve

My first reaction is to connect the Harte car to the one used by David Ward in sprints and libre races in 1981. For not much other reason than they lived near each other, I suspect this might have been Dave Rackham's 1979 car.

What might be useful is if we could work out who now owns what of the Chevron B29 run. [I note that there is a roller currently for sale on racecarsdirect.com]
Out of the 27 or 28 built I only know the fates of the following. At least another 37 originals are still out there...

1: Destroyed in 1975 in testing
4: For sale on race-cars.uk last year
5: sold on race-cars.com in 2001?
6: Seems to have been broken up for spares in the early 1980s
16: For sale on race-cars.com and used recently by Brack at Trois Rivieres
18: Destroyed in 1975, rebuilt into chassis 25
25: Currently in S.Africa
30: In New Zealand
11; 13 and probably 22 were not built. Derek Bennett was a superstitious guy and it's rare that a build run includes 11; 22 or 33.

I'm suspicious that there might be an extra car used at Trois Rivieres by Opert that is not in the build record, because all the extant B29s in the world seem to be racing that day and there is one car too many!

Does anyone have any observations of known identities in the hands of current owners? We have one without a plate which is currently under investigation.

Chris

Michael Oliver · 9 Dec 2004, 00:37 (Ref:1174889)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

The Coombs cars in 1972 seem to be:

Chassis 4: Used by Jabouille, sold to Ron Courtney in N.Ireland in 1973

Chris

He didn't hang on to it for long then, did he, as I am looking at a copy of an ad for the car in the Aug 9th 1973 edition of Autosport? Interestingly, it is described in Courtney's ad as being ex-Francois Cevert and the pic of the car shown is of Cevert at Thruxton 1972, car no 44.

Just one other thought re 722s: I know that a 722 tub was used as the basis for Mike Beuttler's 721G F1 car, do you know which one, or was it just a spare, un-numbered tub? Same question, I guess, for the cars raced later in 1972 by Peterson and Lauda...

Bryan Miller · 9 Dec 2004, 09:10 (Ref:1175085)

Chris,

On page 17 , I asked you re an update on Chevron B29's , at that time I was trying to figure out the identity of the car just recently advertised as a project and now the subject of the new U.K. owner.

Of the list -5 is still here , changed hands from Peter Addison to Rob McMillan about 6 months ago. This is the Poon car.
-30 is still also here with Peter Whelan of Sth. Australia , and in superb condition as is -5, both cars used all the time in Historic Racing, -30 being the ex Redman car.

Bryan.

allenbrown · 9 Dec 2004, 09:47 (Ref:1175103)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Oliver

Just one other thought re 722s: I know that a 722 tub was used as the basis for Mike Beuttler's 721G F1 car, do you know which one, or was it just a spare, un-numbered tub? Same question, I guess, for the cars raced later in 1972 by Peterson and Lauda...

And the Formula 5000 725 too.

Allen

Steve Wilkinson · 16 Dec 2004, 19:16 (Ref:1181302)

No one any nearer finding the chassis number for Stuart Harte's Chevron?

Dan Rear · 17 Dec 2004, 13:28 (Ref:1181853)

Was it the one Bob Howlings used in 1981 Atlantic here ? Quite a scruffy car as I recall.

Smellybeard · 17 Dec 2004, 17:14 (Ref:1182005)

Bob Howlings B29 was previously Ken Fildes'. Before that... ?
It had an obvious non-original, two element rear wing when I saw it last.

Dave.

Chris Townsend · 17 Dec 2004, 19:53 (Ref:1182075)

Ken Fildes' car was chassis 06, 1975: Alo Lawler 1976: Alo Lawler 1977: John Eastwood 1978 Joey Greenan 1979 Ken Fildes.

Chris

Bill Murray · 17 Dec 2004, 20:31 (Ref:1182100)

Regarding the B29 recently bought via the US website, it is confirmed as B29-75-08. It has the number stamped into the monocoque inside the engine bay (under 20 years of crud) The body shows traces of light blue under the red (Gitanes blue?)
Does anyone have a photo of a B29 in this livery?

Michael Oliver · 21 Dec 2004, 22:41 (Ref:1185435)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

Michael

What I was thinking was that Coombs might have had a fourth car, number never noted in period, from the range of chassis where we don't know the original owner, [for example chassis 25] and that Depaillier might have driven this in addition to 45, which seems to have been the last 722 built. It appears first at Rouen 30.6.72 along with Williamson's 722-41, which we have confirmed as a chassis no, from other sources. Just a thought that the Coombs car might have been 722-42 [which then gives 24 as an easy misprint!]

The next reference I have for "45" is that an ex Depaillier 722 is being rebuilt for Alan Rollinson to run F.Atlantic in 1974. There is no chassis number attached to the report, and by that time the car would have been to 74B spec I guess, with full width nose, but side rads.
Rollinson is entered in a 'March' at Oulton, 5.5.74 but DNA
Qualifies 20th at Silverstone 12.5.74 where the car is described is 'ex Coombs/Depaillier', result not known
I don't have any other record of the car appearing with Rollinson, nor anything which might be that car in the hands of another driver.
[However, I am somewhat shy of programmes and race result sheets for mid season 74, so he may have carried on for a while. If someone out there has the British GP programme for 74 they could tell us whether or not he at least entered the Atlantic support race.] Some photos from Atlantic would also be great, I can scan and return!

Chris

Hi Chris

I'm sure you've already got this but just in case:

722/41 was advertised by David Lambe AS 18/10/73 p57 as ex-Williamson/Patsy McGarrity.

On facing page (e.g. 56) is an ad for GRD 273 F2 car (two races from new) with a Leicester number. Would this be another ex-Williamson car, possibly being sold by Wheatcroft? I know he had a GRD initially, didn't he and then switched to a March?

On same page, Stan Mathews Racing are advertising his March 73B (only two months old) so an August 73-ish build. Again don't know if it helps!?

jkeller · 28 Dec 2004, 08:01 (Ref:1188702)

I was in Germany last week and saw a March 732 with an odd chassis plate. The plate number is 732-084. I lifted off the roll over bar and took a look at the number stamped into the tub, it was also 732-084. The plate looks like every other March plate I've seen, the car is definatly all March and looks original.
Any idea how this car came to be?
Are there any records showing tub number 732-084?
Jim Keller

Michael Oliver · 29 Dec 2004, 20:06 (Ref:1189502)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Oliver

The May ad sounds as if it is a follow-up to one which ran in Autosport 8/2/73 p60 - maybe they thought they had sold the pair and then one of them fell through. The full text of the Feb ad is as follows:

March 722 F2 Cars

Two 1972 Elf-Coombe(sic) F2 cars are offered for sale as rolling chassis units, including FT200 gearbox. One front radiator car with full width nose (parts for reconversion if required) and one conventional side radiator car. Both extensively rebuilt and checked and in immaculate condition. Spare wheels and other accessories available as required. Offers to John Coombe(sic) with a Guildford address and phone number.

The May ad reads as follows:

March 722/24

Ex-Patrick Depailler rolling chassis and FT200 gearbox with full-width nose and front radiators. Original nose and side radiators available. Fitted with 10s and 14s. Assorted spares also available. Offers please. John Coombs on a Guildford number.

So it sounds to me as if they sold the car with the conventional nose but still had the full-width nose car available. The ad is very clear about the car being ex-Depailler and 722/24, so I'm not sure where this leaves us! Perhaps the ex-Depailler bit is right but the chassis number quoted is incorrect. Don't know if ads were taken down on the phone or scrawled in handwriting but it could have been another number that sounded similar, e.g. 34 or 44 even? Any Coombs cars of those numbers?

Cheers

Michael

Chris et al

Just to note that John Coombs ran the same ad for March 722/24 in the October 25th 1973 edition of Autosport, p56. Although it was exactly the same wording, I would have thought that if the chassis number had been incorrect in the May ad, they would have changed it for the October one?

I know that you have already identified 722/24 as a car raced by Bill Gubelmann in FAtlantic. Is this perhaps a situation where one car could have had a frame number and the other a tub number, both the same? I still think something is not right here but I'm not sure what...

Bryan Miller · 6 Jan 2005, 06:01 (Ref:1194259)

Jim,
Re your March sighting , I reckon that the plate is non original , and somebody at some time had the car and the chassis plate was missing , and found the tub number and made a new plate with the tub number as the chassis no. not knowing or caring that these two numbers never were the same , my 74B-12 is on tub 732-026 , and I am sure all the F3 cars used the same tubs as well .
If we knew the history of the car , maybe we could figure it all out.

Regards Bryan.