IMSA DPi Discussion

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by godlameroso

Completely emotional response, but that's expected.

No, both GM and Ford have said there's no chance they'd enter in F1 and stated multiple reasons as they have no interest in non-streetable engines and NOTHING on the F1 engines can be converted for the street. MB is trying and they estimate their new F1 hypercar will be a couple million minimum, and probably not easily streetable. They (GM and Ford) get more out of tuning the V8s for racing to improve and help the V8s survive fleet fuel restrictions to stay in street cars and improve the EcoBoost line. Esp after the turbos blowing on early F150s and now greatly improved. Think you could see the next Cadillac prototype engine become a turbo V6 if they really push them ala Ford.

But you will never see either develop racing hybrids as GM has their Volt line, efficient and not allowed by ACO rules, and Ford is pushing their electrics in city cars. Neither are a brand enhanced by racing cars, sorry but the VAST majority of drivers could not care any less about racing. Think both would be better served in Formula E and that series will be the end of P1 over anything the ACO can do short of making battery swaps legal and full electric P1 cars. Doubt the manufacturers care much about visibility or racing fan opinion over a test bed as things get opened more and more, motor tweaks allowed this year and next I believe and batteries are due for 2018 upgrades for a near future change to one car for the full race.

And I'd argue his response was completely emotionless, factual statements in response to each of your claims.

[godlameroso]

You forget a lot of technologies that will translate from racing to road cars. Electric turbos, friction coatings for cylinders, injectors, intake and exhaust port geometry, combustion chambers, gear boxes. Electric water pumps were first developed in F1 now they're ubiquitous in Mercedes cars. Cheap oil is temporary, the price is going to be driven up again by speculators and we'll be back at shopping for efficient cars.

Did you forget what happened the last time USA tried their hand at LeMans victory? I still remember all the hype and commercials, and I also remember the flawed concept that was 10+ seconds off the pace and they couldn't even get the hybrid to work. That is just a preview of what would happen if GM or Ford tried to compete with Toyota or Porsche at LeMans. I don't even want to think about how badly they'd do in F1. Now that F1 is American owned maybe GM can lobby Liberty Media as hard as they did IMSA, or as hard as Ferrari does to FIA now.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by godlameroso

You forget a lot of technologies that will translate from racing to road cars. Electric turbos, friction coatings for cylinders, injectors, intake and exhaust port geometry, combustion chambers, gear boxes. Electric water pumps were first developed in F1 now they're ubiquitous in Mercedes cars. Cheap oil is temporary, the price is going to be driven up again by speculators and we'll be back at shopping for efficient cars.

Did you forget what happened the last time USA tried their hand at LeMans victory? I still remember all the hype and commercials, and I also remember the flawed concept that was 10+ seconds off the pace and they couldn't even get the hybrid to work. That is just a preview of what would happen if GM or Ford tried to compete with Toyota or Porsche at LeMans. I don't even want to think about how badly they'd do in F1. Now that F1 is American owned maybe GM can lobby Liberty Media as hard as they did IMSA, or as hard as Ferrari does to FIA now.

Hmmm, remind me again which GM and Ford project that was??

And actually MB, Renault, and Honda have said their engines use very exotic materials that have minimal transfer for decades, well their engineers have let it slip. Probably angering the PR departments who keep hanging their hats on the road relevance. Electric water pumps were NOT from F1, off roaders have been using them for DECADES now as well as drag racers. And F1 gearboxes are not road car relevant in any way. Not any more than the racing the street car boxes are in various small sportscar series and the Nurburgring 24 hours, where AMR did develop and test their previous by driving the car to the track, raced and then drove home.

And sorry, do NOT ever include Toyota in look how great we are. They were CRUSHED in F1 and NEVER made a decent car, engine or chassis. Their product was absolute trash and cost more than any other team EVER in the history of F1.

[godlameroso]

Incorrect, the engines themselves are aluminum blocks, nothing exotic about that. It's written into the regulations.

The exoticness comes from trick combustion systems to allow ultra lean burning. The development and R&D are where the money is spent. Actually fabricating the block is peanuts in comparison.

Toyota had good cars in F1, the problem with Toyota was that they had no experience in an F1 environment, and they had no political clout, which is essential to survive in that environment. If the team had been better organized, had a team principal that was more politically active, like Brawn, or Wolff, they would have undoubtedly preformed better.

And winning F1 absolutely helps a brand's marketing

http://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/14...edes-car-sales

The chairman of Daimler Dr Dieter Zetsche says Mercedes' success in Formula One has had a direct effect on car sales over the last three years.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by godlameroso

Incorrect, the engines themselves are aluminum blocks, nothing exotic about that. It's written into the regulations.

The exoticness comes from trick combustion systems to allow ultra lean burning. The development and R&D are where the money is spent. Actually fabricating the block is peanuts in comparison.

Toyota had good cars in F1, the problem with Toyota was that they had no experience in an F1 environment, and they had no political clout, which is essential to survive in that environment. If the team had been better organized, had a team principal that was more politically active, like Brawn, or Wolff, they would have undoubtedly preformed better.

And winning F1 absolutely helps a brand's marketing

http://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/14...edes-car-sales

Yes, WINNING has. Nothing about the car has in the SLIGHTEST. In fact you can argue, and more than a few articles have been written about the blackeye MB has developed after their egotistical expression of their dominance.

And I didn't say the blocks, yes they are fairly low tech but the heads are built for too high rev nature for use even in motorcycles and use exotic materials to accomplish such revs. The turbos are the most commonly referenced part for street transfer but BMW has a few in their development line and guess what, none has come from F1 racing. And if you want to argue turbo technology from F1 engines, the split turbo is a MUCH better example. That is huge for packaging, cooling and efficiency by allowing the electric boosts to work long term. The batteries and electrics are theirs alone and the FE guys from a few teams have expressed concerns about how F1 teams are chasing tech that is tough to get long life out of instead of better systems, partially rules and partially their engineers not listening to a 'lesser' class of racing. I have no idea what the differences are but listening to engineers on both sides talk about it gives me the idea there's some limitations with the F1 style systems. Nevermind the MGU-H that many people have said is a dead end for street use and better battery systems should be the push instead.

And sorry, but the Toyota F1 car was a DOG a LOT of the time. Was only close a few times to winning and never actually managed that. Especially considering they had, and still have, a GREAT wind tunnel to test and develop in.

[tigas]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Audi is not going to spend a cent on new non-customer, non-alternate energy motorsport programs in the near future.

My money is on Red Bull paying Audi to build an F1 engine and Audi building a chassis to run it as LMP1 (if that loophole is still in the LMP1 rules).

Red Bull needs a works hybrid engine ASAP, unless Ross Brawn comes in and says these engines are EOL in 3 years.

[joeb]

Let's get back to focusing on DPI discussion

[TF110]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Yes, WINNING has. Nothing about the car has in the SLIGHTEST. In fact you can argue, and more than a few articles have been written about the blackeye MB has developed after their egotistical expression of their dominance.

And I didn't say the blocks, yes they are fairly low tech but the heads are built for too high rev nature for use even in motorcycles and use exotic materials to accomplish such revs. The turbos are the most commonly referenced part for street transfer but BMW has a few in their development line and guess what, none has come from F1 racing. And if you want to argue turbo technology from F1 engines, the split turbo is a MUCH better example. That is huge for packaging, cooling and efficiency by allowing the electric boosts to work long term. The batteries and electrics are theirs alone and the FE guys from a few teams have expressed concerns about how F1 teams are chasing tech that is tough to get long life out of instead of better systems, partially rules and partially their engineers not listening to a 'lesser' class of racing. I have no idea what the differences are but listening to engineers on both sides talk about it gives me the idea there's some limitations with the F1 style systems. Nevermind the MGU-H that many people have said is a dead end for street use and better battery systems should be the push instead.

And sorry, but the Toyota F1 car was a DOG a LOT of the time. Was only close a few times to winning and never actually managed that. Especially considering they had, and still have, a GREAT wind tunnel to test and develop in.

Toyota's F1 technical director was Mike Gascoyne, who is unemployed in the racing world. Their drivers were Jarno Trulli and Timo Glock who don't win in anything they race, even now (well, Trulli is retired). You don't automatically win in any series you race, especially F1. Anyway, dpi isn't a technology class. It's a rebadge and bop one. That's not to say that GM and Ford have no technology in their cars or their companies. The best facilities are useless without the right personnel.

[kvenom]

I wonder how embarrassed Mazda JPN are getting by Mazda NA. Speedsource/Doonan couldn't win even if they were given a 3hr headstart. Dump speedsource, dump AER, shack up with Joest and beg cosworth or judd to provide a "Mazda" branded engine then things could get interesting.

[10TENTHS]

Originally Posted by TF110

Toyota's F1 technical director was Mike Gascoyne, who is unemployed in the racing world. Their drivers were Jarno Trulli and Timo Glock who don't win in anything they race, even now (well, Trulli is retired). You don't automatically win in any series you race, especially F1. Anyway, dpi isn't a technology class. It's a rebadge and bop one. That's not to say that GM and Ford have no technology in their cars or their companies. The best facilities are useless without the right personnel.

Who do you think makes the engine?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by 10TENTHS

Who do you think makes the engine?

I said "and" bop Doesn't matter if the engine is a GM or a Nissan. They're supposed to be equalizing them. The chassis is a rebadge job. The bodywork is different but that's bop'd as well. So I think what I said is appropriate.

[Damian Baldi]

How DPi electronic systems differ to LMP2

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/a...iffer-to-lmp2/

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Damian Baldi

How DPi electronic systems differ to LMP2

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/a...iffer-to-lmp2/

Pretty interesting read. I didn't know much about electronic systems in these cars, but now i do!

[Makaze]

The countdown to the Honda/Penske Dpi release.I was told the only thing that will kill this program is IMSA(bop) or WW3.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Makaze

The countdown to the Honda/Penske Dpi release.I was told the only thing that will kill this program is IMSA(bop) or WW3.

Well, I look forward to this announcement!

It also brings up the question, what is the best number of manufacturers to have in DPi? A Honda program would bring the number to 4, but will that 4th entry entice additional interest or deter it?

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by joeb

A Honda program would bring the number to 4, but will that 4th entry entice additional interest or deter it?

Having Penske on board has never hurt any series in any way that I can remember. The only time Penske did not help was when he joined Rolex with a pair of Porsches and was pretty much shut down by BoP so he couldn't win ... oh, no .......

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Having Penske on board has never hurt any series in any way that I can remember. The only time Penske did not help was when he joined Rolex with a pair of Porsches and was pretty much shut down by BoP so he couldn't win ... oh, no .......

I guess what I was referring to was that if there are 4 manufacturers them the chance of a manufacturer winning is 1 in 4. If a 5th manufacturer enters the odds drop to 20%. At some point a manufacturer could say "my chances of success aren't high enough to warrant the investment".

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by joeb

I guess what I was referring to was that if there are 4 manufacturers them the chance of a manufacturer winning is 1 in 4. If a 5th manufacturer enters the odds drop to 20%. At some point a manufacturer could say "my chances of success aren't high enough to warrant the investment".

Ah, I see. Makes sense. On the other hand, if we get four solid manufacturer programs, do we Need a fifth?

[Scorchess]

ESM counts as a manufacturer?

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Scorchess

ESM counts as a manufacturer?

Cadillac, Nissan, Mazda, right now. Add Honda, we have four. Works for me, and for the series too, I'd bet.

[Damian Baldi]

Originally Posted by joeb

I guess what I was referring to was that if there are 4 manufacturers them the chance of a manufacturer winning is 1 in 4. If a 5th manufacturer enters the odds drop to 20%. At some point a manufacturer could say "my chances of success aren't high enough to warrant the investment".

Well, but there were six factories at the group-c era of the WSC at Le Mans, not all the year at the same series, but at IMSA, WSC and JSCP. Mercedes, Porsche, Jaguar, Nissan, Toyota, Mazda.


Once the teams and cars are well established, if the BoP works well, it could be a racingfest, with some cars being good at some tracks and other cars at other tracks or weather conditions. BoP will never be perfect, because even spec categories have same winners all the time.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Damian Baldi

Well, but there were six factories at the group-c era of the WSC at Le Mans, not all the year at the same series, but at IMSA, WSC and JSCP. Mercedes, Porsche, Jaguar, Nissan, Toyota, Mazda.


Once the teams and cars are well established, if the BoP works well, it could be a racingfest, with some cars being good at some tracks and other cars at other tracks or weather conditions. BoP will never be perfect, because even spec categories have same winners all the time.

Good point, bop could be seen as a way around this. But as you say, it has to work properly. If bop worked in a way, as you say, where some cars were better at some tracks or conditions then i'd be all for it. I just worry that it will be done in a way to make sure all the manufacturers get their win for the year and stay happy.

[TF110]

There's enough races to have a chance to win one or two and maybe challenge for the championship even if there's 4 manufacturers and everyone wins more than once. But those chances dwindle with more entries.

[Rcz]

The Honda would probably be called Acura.

[Damian Baldi]

Originally Posted by Rcz

The Honda would probably be called Acura.

It is the Acura GTD using the same 3.5 v6 turbo engine used last year on the P2?