Safety in Historics - points raised by incidents at Goodwood

[David McKinney]

MODERATORS NOTE:

A number of safety issues have been raised after incidents at this year's Goodwood Revival. I have therefore duplicated the posts which discuss this aspect into this new thread so as to allow peoples' happier reminiscences from the weekend to flourish in the original thread.

Please forgive me therefore if some of the early posts in this thread seem a little "plucked from the ether"!



Chris Smith (Lotus 18)
I'm told his injuries are limited to the lower leg(s)
I'm sure we all wish him a speedy recovery

[zefarelly]

Best wishes to him for a speedy recovery

THe Gt's where superb, the saloons, as always the high;light of the weekend for me, why is it it makes for such good viewing ? there where 4 different leaders, nose to tail, side by side action from start to finish, good clean family fun ! fantastic driving from Rae Davies, Justin Law and Chris Sanders in the Std 10 early on.

[Stephen Green]

Indeed we do. Get well soon Chris.

I have to add that the BARC rescue lads and lassies did a fabulous job this weekend!

[Nordic]

Chris Smith, is he owner of Westfield Sports Cars? Hope it all turns out ok for him, it puts into sharp focus the every present danger of racing these old cars, from where we where standing it seemed to fold up a bit on him.

I hope willie green is also ok as I understand he had a fairly major off in his GT40, that brought the red flag for a 2nd time in the whitsun race

[Stephen Green]

I believe the stop in the GT40 was due to the cars position in the gravel trap. With such high value and arguably irreplaceable cars in dangerous positions, it is often better to call for a race stop than worry over the possible risk to machinery.

[zefarelly]

likewise they stopped the St MArys trophy race when the Zephyr was guided into a roll in the gravel, I think it presents a major threat to the marshals, drivers etc, and this at the end of the day is more important than a few dents on ANY car

[Peter Horsman]

Yup, Chris is the owner of Westfield. A nice guy.

[Stephen Green]

I hope he is fully recovered soonest and send my best wishes.

[stuart05]

Three fabulous days in superb weather.
Personal highlights were the Booklands cars, the St Marys Trophy race on Sunday and the return of the Shelby Daytona Cobras in the TT.
Only another 362 days to go...

[macca]

It was Willie Green in the yellow GT40 who spun at Madgewick when Duncan Dayton in a Brabham-BRM BT7 V8 was on the inside - it looked for all the world as though he tried to outbrake DD (a GT40 outbrake a little Brabham!!!! ) and went into the fence on his own while DD took a much harder impact. I didn't see any signs of contact between the two, DD just had nowhere to go.

The race had been stopped previously when the Dolphin-Chevy went deep into the Madgewick gravel - it looked safe enough to me so far off the track, but..................

The Zodiac was squeezed out on the first lap of his race and went into the gravel sideways for a gentle roll - the only thing broken appeared to be the windscreen, through which the driver emerged before the marshalls righted it.

In the Richmond & Gorden Trophies race for late-'60s F1s, there was an odd accident to the maroon 250F Maserati - he went onto the grass on the outside of the first part of Madgewick but had his hand in the air as though something had broken, then almost managed to steer it away from the fence but just dinged the ends of the car and the left-front wheel as far as I could see. Yet when they were putting it on the truck I saw a marshall pick up a whole and detached (apparently intact) driveshaft.

Paul M

[Mal]

I just picked this from Goodwood's website:

"Christopher Smith - Glover Trophy

In the early stages of the Glover Trophy race for 1.5-litre Grand Prix cars on the Sunday (Sept 5) of the Goodwood Revival, Christopher Smith from Kinver, West Midlands, suffered a substantial impact in his 1961 Lotus-Climax 18 at Madgwick corner. He fractured one ankle and broke the tibia of his other leg.

Chris, head of Westfield Sports cars, is a highly experienced driver having raced extensively since the 1960s.

The complex chassis structure of the Lotus’s nose caused complications for the crew tasked with extracting Chris from the car, which took longer than expected (Racing was eventually restarted around 45 minutes later).

The hospital reports that Chris is comfortable and making good progress."

Good news I guess.

[Al Weyman]

You will probably shoot me down in flames for this but I have often questioned the sense in running these old F1 cars in competition I also am including the Boss series. How many professional paid drivers in the past have stepped out of these machines vowing to never race again after loosing one close friend too many. These old cars were dangerous and drivers did perish not like the wonderful kevlar surviavable drivers cells into todays cars. I don't know whether to admire the guys who race these for there outright bravery or question their sanity to compete unpaid in such a dangerous piece of equiment. It is like vintage aircraft you fly them with respect not balls out imatation dogfights, may be there should be a rethink and restrict these old cars to demonstration runs only.

[the18racer]

Chris's shunt was nasty. He has a broken ankle and a broken tibia. The chassis was so distorted by the impact that it took nearly 50 minutes to cut Chris out. It didn't do much for my peace of mind given that my car is similar to Chris's, and I could not bring myself to look at the wreckage. My own race was not particularly distinguished; I went into the gravel trap at the exit of Woodcote when desperately trying to avoid t-boning Laidlaw's spinning BRM. It took 20 or 30 seconds to get out, by which time Chris had had his shunt. As I went past the scene, I could see that it was a mess, but I could see Chris moving, and he appeared to be trying to get out. I took the restart stone last, and spent the entire race stuck behind a certain Lotus 24. With only 120 BHP ihad no chance of getting past and making it stick, but I did get by once or twice, the best move being round the outside at St. Mary's, whereupon he moved over on me and put me on the grass..... Oh, and the Maserati 250F broke in qualifying before I had put in a lap at full racing speed. The owner has confessed to an, ahem, over-revving "indiscretion" at Oulton last Monday.

[the18racer]

Mr. Weyman, consider yourself shot down in flames. I am not insane, and I do not have a death wish, and neither do any of my fellow competitors. Most of us now have rollover hoops, bag tanks and seat belts, whilst fire extinguishers are mandatory. Our modern race suits and helmets offer very good protection. Whilst our cars may be comparatively fragile, most of us recognise that fact and temper our driving styles accordingly. We respect each other and whilst some incidents do occur (see my comments above!)most of these are not deliberate instances of dirty driving. I have raced wheel to wheel with Chris Smith and many others; we all know who we can trust and who the nutters are (they exist). We appreciate the risks we run and we accept them for what they are, because we are the ones who are best placed to make such decisions. Your comments suggest that you simply do not understand historic racing or the people who are involved in it. Racing fast old cars is one of the last bastions against the insidious creeping tide of political correctness, the Safety Nazis and the puritanical killjoys who are ruining this country. There were 104,000 people at the Revival, most of whom (presumably) would agree with my views. Whose side are you on?

[Al Weyman]

Fair comment and as I said it was my personal opinion and I was prepared to be jumped on, but I do remember drivers stepping out of cars at the pinnicle of their careers and saying enough is enough. If you are saying you are driving these cars at only 9/10ths then fair enough but so often they old red mist comes into play.

Just take Chris who crashed on SUnday, hopefully he will make a full recovery but if God forbid he ended up a cripple it really does not make a lot of sound sense does it for competing as an unpaid driver at so much risk. If it was as in yesteryear when these cars were new, his career and the way he earned his money then it may be justifiable but to take risks like this for fun. As you said there are nutters out there as well. Sorry to make the comment and I am not trying to put a downer on a sport that you obviously love but I have appeared on the same calender as the Boss series in the past and it is something I have often pondered especially whe reading of a 19 year old doing all the winning who lets face it must be peddling that old car pretty damned hard.

[Fan]

Well, I'm back from another great weekend at Goodwood. What a fantastic weekend! the18racer, I was in you race (car #1 Assegai) although I'm not sure which car you were in. I agree with you about what you're saying above. We race these cars because they need to be raced. They are great cars that need to be driven with respect.

To race a car at Goodwood is great. Drive at 9/10ths and it's good fun, drive at 11/10ths and it's scary... I felt sick when I saw Chris's car on the back of the truck (should it not have been covered up??) and having gone through Madgick shortly before him, I can vouch for the amount of oil at Madgwick, I was completely sideways when I hit it, and very lucky not to go off...

Having raced a modern F3 car this year, when I drove out the pits on Friday I must admit that I have never felt so exposed in all my life. 100 meters on I felt fine. We're not at Goodwood to break lap records, we're there to drive the cars hard, but safely. It's not stupid (although one or two drivers are idiots - no names mentioned)...

[Al Weyman]

Yes I guess I am a bit of an old bottle cas which is why i have only raced Chevy Camaros with a bit of metal around them, OK guys you have my respect, well you always did, but I would not have the balls to drive them I will openly admit.

[Circuitmarshal]

Originally posted by Mal
I just picked this from Goodwood's website:

"Christopher Smith - Glover Trophy

In the early stages of the Glover Trophy race for 1.5-litre Grand Prix cars on the Sunday (Sept 5) of the Goodwood Revival, Christopher Smith from Kinver, West Midlands, suffered a substantial impact in his 1961 Lotus-Climax 18 at Madgwick corner. He fractured one ankle and broke the tibia of his other leg.

The hospital reports that Chris is comfortable and making good progress."

Good news I guess.

From Lord March at Lunch time today. (Mon)
Chris is 'OK' and should be out of hospital in about a week.

[Slippy Diff]

Originally posted by Al Weyman
Yes I guess I am a bit of an old bottle cas which is why i have only raced Chevy Camaros with a bit of metal around them, OK guys you have my respect, well you always did, but I would not have the balls to drive them I will openly admit.

How do you judge a camaro to be safer??? You have an off in a Camaro at the wrong place, wrong speed and hit the barriers at the wrong spot, it can be just as bad as in any other race car.

[Al Weyman]

Well one of my old tubs can or did hit 156mph down the Thruxton back straight, the other 87 IROC one would probably hit more like 170mph having a more powerful engine, slipperey shape (mk 3) and a lot lighter (1300kgs) but I think I would bottle out first. But I do have a very stout 2" roll cage in that car but I do take your point.

[Slippy Diff]

170 mph!!!!!!!

[Al Weyman]

575bhp in a 1300kgs car work it out the frontsl areas is about the same as a Testorossa, I know the 2nd gen hit 156mph as I worked it out accurately with the tyre sizes, and revs etc and that had about 425bhp and weighed in at 1455kgs This is only theretic as I gave up racing before I got the thing sorted correctly but have tacken it out on a couple of tests since. Actually this car was tested at Goodwood by Mark Hales prior to me sorting it out, it had a lot of problems then like shockers bottoming out and a fuel pressure problem and the fact they called it a Capri in the triple C article did not help!

[Slippy Diff]

Originally posted by Al Weyman
575bhp in a 1300kgs

I had 280/300 bhp (I think!) in about 1050 KG's and that was fun pulling it up for the chicane at Thruxton.

[Al Weyman]

Oh I breaked early don't worry, on this occassion I actually and for the only time in this car, posted it on pole. And then guess what, it pours down with rain for the race and those old things on road tyres (Falkens) were not a lot of good in the wet.

[Slippy Diff]

I used to pray for rain. At Thruxton in 2002 I went from about 12th on the grid to 2nd in 3 corners in the streaming wet. Got a pic somewhere of me IN FRONT of Whizzo Williams!!!