Safety in Historics - points raised by incidents at Goodwood

[eclectic]

Before mandating HANS in historic racing, I would like to see a statistical analysis of all accidents over the last 5 years in Historic racing demonstrating in how many incidents a Hans would have prevented injury.

Our hobby is surprisingly safe as it is, after all there is no one driving towards us at the same speed, we all have the option of full harness belts, helmets, there is a doctor handy, an ambulance and no one is drunk or stoned on the circuit.

Oh gosh, I just realised how dangerous it is to drive to the circuit, I think I will fit a HANS to my road car.......

Get real!

Very few of us drive F1 cars or anything like them, if I had the budget for a Canam then I probably would need such a device........

The current health and safety culture raises PERCEIVED risks and tries to mandate them, what we need is analysis of ACTUAL risk.

The VSCC has been organising speed events since the late 1930's, the unfortunate fatality at Cadwell 2 years ago was, I believe the first since two marshals were killed in the 1950's. We run 5 race meetings, two sprints and three hill climbs every year.

Most VSCC cars run at high speed and have NO seatbelts.

We do not indulge in nerfing or handle rubbing 'cos we know our cars are dangerous. The more safety devices are fitted the more gladiatorial the driving becomes, just look at modern saloon car racing.

It is called the 'Volvo/Ciroen 2CV theory'.

Volvos are marketed as super safe cars.

Citroen 2 CV's re known by their drivers to be death traps.

Volvos have many more accidents than Citoen 2CVs as a result.

[Marcus Mussa]

I expect it will be mandatory for all cars where safety harnesses are mandatory – HANS only works if there is a harness. So I doubt it will be mandatory in cars up to 1960 (period E). There are small modifications required on the cars, in particular the shape of the headrest and the way the shoulder belts are fitted, but nothing very complicated. HANS seems to be most effective in head on or rear end collisions, so it would be very useful in both open and closed cars.

I have myself already bought a system, it costs about the same as a set of race tyres – so I would think it is worth having a look at even without waiting for 2009. And the more we show we are concerned with our own safety the less the FIA will be tempted to legislate. This goes also for driving standards where I understand they are studying their options…

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Sod what you look like in Hans if you can afford it go for it ........

Al, did you forget you said that or have you changed your mind because it might now be manadatory! (You can thump me next time we meet!)

In response to Bob's remark, and at the risk of being hauled over the coals again, I repeat that motor racing is inherently dangerous so I have every respect for the driver who takes as many mitigating actions to ensure he is able to continue racing again and again. The fact is that, until you take the driver out of the cars and race them by remote control, there are always unforeseen elements that ensure that there always be an element of danger to the driver, not least of which is at what level the individual's competitive spirit kicks in, and which makes you want to race in the first place.

[Al Weyman]

Oh you are a *itch John, just you wait, you notice I did say 'if' you can afford it, also as I said before I am a big old lump that has enough trouble getting in and out of the Chevies in any case let alone with one of those things on, I may have asked this before, can you take them on and off to get in and out of the car or as I have seen the F1 drivers you have to leave them on.

Oh and eclectic maybe we should fit a spike on the steering column as well for good measure.

[John Turner]

Sorry Al, just couldn't resist!

I think to be fair to Mike, he competes in the sort of vehicles that if fitted with some of the safety features fitted to later historic vehicles would quite possibly increase the danger as well as complete change or ruin the handling! Also for the reasons he has stated, they have to be driven somewhat differently. Horses for courses really.

[Al Weyman]

Yeah I know he does I was only having a wind up, I think he may well be better off getting thrown out altogether in that type of vehicle.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

. . . I may have asked this before, can you take them on and off to get in and out of the car or as I have seen the F1 drivers you have to leave them on.

Hi Al

I have seen several drivers get out of closed cars without any trouble. The HANS just sort of follows the driver's head. I'm not saying that you could not have trouble but most don't seem to.

I suspect that it will make it more likely that you will need assistance to get belted in properly. Anyone found this a problem? Pit stops?

Regards

Jim

[Al Weyman]

If it is more difficult to get out its a bit worrying if you had a fire.

[Eddy V]

Al, you should be able to take the Hans off inside your car.
As the system has been in use here in Germany for a year, most drivers complained about it in the early days. But after a while they got used to it and seem to be happy now (bar a few).

It will however always be a problem when the door opening is small and if there is lots of rollcage to climb over. Not to mention big drivers.

I, for one, would like to see the system not to be made mandatory in smaller events. Even if it is safe and even if I sell 'em.

[Al Weyman]

I must admit that black car of mine is a bit power manic for the chassis so maybe I ought to think about it especially as I have to change the belts anyhow, I have a Hans ready helmet, what do I look for in the way of belts, did i read 3" is no good? Also it is easier to get in and out of.

[Eddy V]

Just plain normal 3" ones Al. All the rest is lots of wind from the manufacturers.
Make sure your helmet has the silver FIA Hans compatible sticker on it at the back, then you are safe for all events.

[Al Weyman]

Its omly 6 months old AVG and has the removable studs so I assume it is, the scrut at Silverstone remarked that I have made a good decision to think ahead and buy one that can be used for Hans so should be OK I guess but who knows these days!

[Eddy V]

That little sticker is only needed for FIA events at the moment, as your lid is that new it should have it.
And you are right, who knows what happens next because of those guys wearing blazers.

The studs for the system should be placed by trained personnal only.