Safety in Historics - points raised by incidents at Goodwood

[Dan Friel]

I have to agree that there did seem to be a couple of unnecessary incidents which involved contact.

I think the distinction between marshals (who spot and report) and senior race officials should be made here. The CoC is of course responsible for penalising for guilty and perhaps some drivers should have been made an example of last weekend.

I believe Dayton’s car was reported for leaking, an orange / black flag could (and should) be put out, but there’s no guarantee that he would come in immediately. The power of race officials is actually fairly limited in these circumstances. There’s no point putting slippery surface flags out all round the circuit (everyone was well aware that it was greasy) – what would happen if someone else then holed a sump at No-Name corner!!

Surely race drivers (and their teams on the pitwall) also need to take some responsibility (was Dayton called in by them??). And if they don’t, then I think they should be hammered hard – no matter who they are! I guess if everyone was sensible about it, and all co-operated with each other, then such problems would just not occur..

[Al Weyman]

Hey look I know these are old cars but as an ex-mechanic including one time race engineer and builder of race Imp engines and the odd Bristol and builder of my own Chevy V8's I can't understand why these things seem to be throwing oil out left right and centre. I mean if they are worth all these millions of pounds one would have thought their mechanics would have the where with all and the funds to assemble an engine that it at sould at least be oil tight, I mean do these things work on a total loss oil system or something I am sure they don't. A small block Chevy V8 is not the easiest engine to get oil tight but with deft use of modern materials like silicone mastic they can be built so they don't chuck oil over the track. I think it is inexcusable and downright poor preparation.

[johnw]

I think that you denigrate the marshals unfairly fangio. I was a mere spectator, but saw exemplary flagging on the posts in front of me (Lavant in and out).

Must assume that Sytner was penalised, as he was summoned to the C of C immediately (caught on my scanner), but how would we know, as nothing is published. Not sure that the C of C can send him to the back, but he could have been excluded from the meeting as I was, having not seen a black flag a few years ago.

Duncan Dayton's Brabham was smoking round Lavant from lap two, but it stopped as it straightened up passing the post at Lavant out. I could not see fluid dropping from it until the lap before it went off. Given that it may not have been smoking as it passed the scrutineer, maybe the observers report could override the scrutineer?

As the race wore on it was obvious that Dayton would either not finish, or fall off. So your circumspection seemed most sensible. Had I been behind him, I'd have left some space.
Passing him was always going to be risk not worth taking.

96% seems very precise, but I get your point.

I agree totally that the LMB/Bizarrini incident was completely unnecessary and warranted some penalty.

....if some drivers want to bang doors the BTCC may have a place for them.

They might need to learn to do it with more regularity though

Brilliant meeting again. Great to see these fantastic cars being driven as intended. I wouldn't bother going to see a parade.
Very frightening to See Chris get injured, and thankful that it was not worse, but I am told that he hit an unprotected part of the bank which is something to improve for next year, when I hope that you will all be back to provide the best motor racing meeting on the planet.

[Nordic]

but I am told that he hit an unprotected part of the bank which is something to improve for next year

The area he hit had one row of stacked lorry tires protected by belting.

[johnw]

Were the tyres backfilled with earth?

[Nordic]

I could not tell if those where, but the ones infront of me a bit further round where empty. I would say that the tires are packed closely togeather, and being lorry as opposed to car are alot stiffer and without an area for the tire to compress are very solid.

[Tim the Grey]

I don't race old cars, but I do climb...
Every so often we get the Nannies saying it's dangerous. Surely, as a responsible adult it's MY responsibility to determine MY personal level of acceptable risk? Why should YOU dictate anyone elses life choices?

If you are THAT worried about life, why get out of bed in the morning, as the stats say a number 19 bus has your number on it...

[macca]

Generally the lorry tyres are the inner part of the barrier, with one empty row of car tyres at least behind the belting, and two at corners. Chris hit VERY hard but the barrier did a superb job, the car didn't flip, and most importantly the barrier didn't open up or fail in any way from the impact.

The odd thing is why he crashed at such speed; was it oil, did he get nudged on the grass, or did something break?

Paul M

[johnw]

Originally posted by Tim the Grey
....as the stats say a number 19 bus has your number on it...

That's handy then, as that route is not in my neck of the woods.
BTW it's not the climbing that's the problem, it's the falling.

[Al Weyman]

I still ask the question why are these old cars chucking out oil in the first place. Surely if they are worth so much there must be warnings in the cockpit for the sake of lunching a rare engine I would have thought it prudent to pull off the track. I mean GT40s are a simple small block Ford engine, Lola T70 has the Chevy small block and surely anything with a Cosworth DFV or whatever must be able to be built oil tight.

[Fan]

Originally posted by macca
The odd thing is why he crashed at such speed; was it oil, did he get nudged on the grass, or did something break?

Paul M

I presume it was oil. I went through Madgwick a few seconds before him, hit oil and very, very nearly went off...

[jminsh]

Sytners oil in Qualy was due to him assaulting a kerb and putting a hole in the sump driver problem not the engine builder me thinks. Should have been put to the back of the grid !!

[fangio]

I certainly didn't want to be negative about the marshalls, they do a superb job; I agree it's them notifying the CotC and he should act if he thinks it's appropriate.
Duncan's car was certainly throwing out liquids everywhere, not just now and then.
Using our racing engines to the max this can happen, but if it's noticed the car should be taken out asap.
Major oil leaks from bad assembly are very rare, even in Historics, it's usually overheating or simply the engine about to expire!

[Al Weyman]

Fair comment, maybe he ought to prepare the thing for off road rallying and fit it with a sump guard if it is that vulnerable and he is prone to taking excursions or drysump the car, isnt there something in the blue book about minimum groud clearance fto stop this sort of thing.

[johnw]

Originally posted by fangio
Duncan's car was certainly throwing out liquids everywhere, not just now and then.

You were obviously in the best position to judge this, but it was not visible from trackside until later in the race. Just looked smokey from where I was sat.
Agree that more immediate action is required.

[Al Weyman]

They would not have thought so at the time but I bet you would have been doing them a big favour if they had have been pulled up as no doubt one or two expensive engines are sounding distinctly rattelly after the event.

[Heebeegeetee]

Evening All,

Just like to add my twopennoth as a spectator. I had an absolutely fantastic weekend. The attention to detail around the place is staggering. The racing was just fantastic. And it seems to get better each year.

I was a bit dissapointed to read Mr. Weymans comments re safety in historics. There is no-one out there doing anything they don't want to do, and everyone is free to make there own decisions. I don't think anyone should be forced to wear a full face helmet if they don't want to, either.

I'm sorry to sound crass, but let's not forget what has happened to Wyn Percy, Will Hoy, Barry Sheene etc. All have come to grief to a lesser or greater extent, none due to their track activities. I've tried to think of drivers who have been crippled over the years, and all were driving modern cars. Chris Smith had perhaps as bad an accident as you would wish at Goodwood, and his life was never under threat, I believe.

He has broken his legs. As I recall J Villeneuve saying at the time we had all the hoo-hah when Schumi broke one of his, skiers are breaking their legs every weekend.
I'm not suggesting we get blase, but I don't think there is much evidence to say that Goodwood/historic motorsport is unneccesarily dangerous.

The only thing I noticed this year was some very poor driving by some backmarkers when being lapped. I don't include in this Sally Mason-Styron (sp) who does drive her Ferrari 166 very slowly, but does a much better job of staying out of the way than some others I saw.

Fr'instance, I saw car no.6, the Corvette, in the 1 hour GT race get held up dreadfully by a Ferrari it was lapping. The cars were approaching No-Name. The Ferrari could have backed off beforehand, then tucked in and followed it through into and around St Marys. Instead it willfully resisted the Corvette all the way. The Corvette was actually leading at the time, trying to make hay while most others were driver changing.

In fairness, it is the nature of the Revival that possibly many drivers are there because of the cars they own and not their racecraft, but I think a clear message should be got out that if you're not that quick watch out for those that will lap you. And let them by!

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by Heebeegeetee

In fairness, it is the nature of the Revival that possibly many drivers are there because of the cars they own and not their racecraft,

And there, in a nutshell, you have my problem with these kind of events.

Drivers who cannot race and aggressive drivers who lack respect. Both there because of money or the car they drive. (Possibly an equal part of both).

Its too false to be called a race meeting and too dangerous to be called an event.

Forgive me, I'd love to be part of it but all I've read here is that some drivers respect the blue book because they are amatuer racers (Fan, Fangio, 18racer et al) and then there's the Sytners of this world.

[Peter Mallett]

I should add that I'm not being elitist or anything like but here is an example.

Last year at the Spa 6hrs, there were around 100 cars on the track in "free" practice. I was following a Lotus Elan into Pouhon and we came upon a slow Mustang. The Lotus went through and being on his tail, I followed, moving to the outside, after passing the Mustang, to the racing line. At the same time the Mustang driver either woke up or thought he should accelerate. The upshot of which was my offside rear got pushed onto my tyre and he got a bent nearside front.

Whatever way you look at that I suffered due to inexperience, but I know the story went around that I was a "hooligan" Capri driver. Money you see?

[Al Weyman]

Well it was a personal opinion and fair enough I hear what you say but I still think that if the accidents as it seems were caused by smoking and leakig cars laying down oil then prehaps they should have taken steps to get the cars up to scratch so as not to endanger other drivers lives and priceless irreplacable vehicles. And I stress in my humble opinion I still reckon the Boss series is dangerous sorry but that is my opinion, the cars were dangerous then ad time cannot have made them any safer.

I will add to this what licence do you need to drive these old 6 or 700bhp F1 cars?? I dont know but I would guess a Natioal A at most please correct me if I am wrong.

[Slippy Diff]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
I should add that I'm not being elitist or anything like but here is an example.

Last year at the Spa 6hrs, there were around 100 cars on the track in "free" practice. I was following a Lotus Elan into Pouhon and we came upon a slow Mustang. The Lotus went through and being on his tail, I followed, moving to the outside, after passing the Mustang, to the racing line. At the same time the Mustang driver either woke up or thought he should accelerate. The upshot of which was my offside rear got pushed onto my tyre and he got a bent nearside front.

Whatever way you look at that I suffered due to inexperience, but I know the story went around that I was a "hooligan" Capri driver. Money you see?

I totally agree with your comments. Too many cowboys and 'characters' with lots of money and big egos. I raced at the Eiffel Klassik for many years and can remember some of the on track incidents from there, downright dangerous. One driver was allowed to get his early 60's sportscar through scrutineering with a modern 6 speed race gearbox because he was German Count!!!!

[ss_collins]

SSC posting on a safety thread again hmmm..

Late to this but - Al a euroboss car is far safer than most clubbie single seaters

I race a Historic in a 'modern' series, I'm sure the more recent cars are safer but - my old beast is sooo much nicer to have and race.

The cockpit is massivley more open than the up to date cars and obviously the metal in the chassis has nearly 40 years of crashes and scrapes on it.

Thing about historics is that you have to accept that they are nowhere near as safe as modern cars - the drivers know this and the risks (probably better than most other cars in fact) but still choose to race them.

again I rattle my sabre of let the drivers decide!!

[Al Weyman]

Ok fair comment,do they still let them race on open exhausts, I remember once hveing to do all sorts to get my old Camaro past the sound man and the same meeting the Boss runners were blowing our eardrums out, thought that was a bit odd.

[johnw]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
...Drivers who cannot race and aggressive drivers who lack respect. Both there because of money or the car they drive. (Possibly an equal part of both).

You could say that about plenty of club and national series.

Its too false to be called a race meeting and too dangerous to be called an event.

I accept that there is an element of theatre, but it's definitely a race meeting. Oh that you could see such close, competitive racing with full grids every week.

Maybe not being elitist, but certainly sounding it Peter. If you are on track in free practice with 100 cars, I'd suggest that you might reasonably expect a variance in driver ability. Be worth hearing the story from the Mustang driver's perspective.

[Peter Mallett]

John.

From a spectator's viewpoint you probably enjoy the spectacle but my point was that "fearless Frank" gets away with it because of reputation and numpties get away with it because they are racing(?) expensive cars.

You can't say it about any club racing because (and Al will support this) those drivers who are either too bloody useless or dangerous are removed from said clubs.

BTW. I did hear the other driver's view. He first of all came over to me but changed his mind when he saw me and turned away. Later I heard the "hooligan" Capri driver remarks from some of his associates.

As it happens I wasn't angry (as Zeferelly will testify) just amazed at the sheer stupidity.

Furthermore. I race in long distance events and am fully aware of speed differentials. However, not only do I overtake I also get overtaken and behave accordingly.