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Old 21 Mar 2019, 13:47 (Ref:3892479)   #16
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it was just one race but i was very encouraged with what i saw.

if Honda have in fact turned a corner then they have finally delivered on a long held promise...a successful engine made by a manu but not linked to that manu's factory team...another way to say this is that we could now have viable independent engine provider.

i just hope Honda dont screw it up by thinking they can go full works again!

i also hope that RBR dont sour the relationship with public proclamations about how great they are and how bad their partners are..


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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
At the moment RBR and Honda are trying to temper expectations given the gap to Mercedes. They seem to be getting along swimmingly (so far). I am always very doubtful of anything Helmut Marko says, but this quote is interesting...



https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/3...ull-car-marko/
this claim deserve more consideration imo.

given that we think of RBR as already having the best aero package (particular under braking and through corners...Max and Dan - masters of the late breaking) its slightly mind boggling to think they were holding back while with Renault.

in other words whats going to happen when they let Newey Newey up their new car!

if thats not encouraging then i dont know what is!
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Old 21 Mar 2019, 14:39 (Ref:3892483)   #17
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Originally Posted by Casper View Post
I am still amazed that Honda did not run the motor in a test mule before it was an official F1 homologated PU. The thinking behind that would be an interesting read.
A test mule may or may not have helped. These days, I think, that on track testing is more about correlation and validation of your prior test regime and less about being the primary way to expose issues.

What engineers need is a way to do very controlled testing BEFORE showing up on track (either at a race or a test session). Find issues before putting in the real car (or a mule). Engine dyno testing is an example. But, the dynamics of the solution is more complex these days. That is why most everyone do much more than just engine dyno testing, or even engine dyno testing that try to simulate g-loads. That "something" is a chassis dyno (such as what AVL provides). It is an absolute requirement these days. This combines everything (engine, gearbox, drive shafts, suspension) together and tests the whole integrated unit. If you are able to get good correlation between your internal testing regime (engine dyno, chassis dyno, computer simulation of the power unit, etc.) with the actual on-track performance, then you can do powertrain development nearly 24/7. This works because you can trust your test regime to provide reliable data. If the data tells you that the performance and reliability is there, then it probably is.

I haven't looked at the regulations, but is the CFD limits just on aero development? If so, power unit manufactures could run as much computer simulation on the engines as they wanted as well as nearly unlimited physical testing (dyno, not track testing). It would just be a factor of how large your budget is.

The HUGE miss by Honda is that they seemed to rely purely upon a combination of things like single cylinder test rigs to validate combustion concepts, classic engine dynos and probably computer simulations. They had no capabilities for chassis dynos that would fully integrate the entire powertrain. So they integrated it all together at the very last minute thinking they had it all covered.

I can imagine that McLaren probably had a combination of CAD files, expected performance data plus some type of boilerplate engine mockup that allowed them to design and test fit stuff everything else (gearbox, plumbing, etc.). And then as the season start approached, Honda shows up with a real engine, the put it all together, fire it up, do some quick shake down testing, put it on the truck and drive it to the first test session.

Then they found they had very poor correlation between their pre-integration testing and actual performance. Something was screwing up their combustion process, they had weird power train vibrations/oscillations that didn't show up until on track (those two issue may be related), the had unexpected lubrication issues, reliability issues on various stuff, etc. There was a long list of stuff that just didn't show up on the dyno back in Japan.

Eventually they figured out (probably from external experts) that how they were testing was wrong. I don't know how long it took for Honda to realize this, but then they had to both fix their process and fix the engine at the same time. Without being able to replicate issues on dynos, they had to rely upon forensic analysis to figure out what was going on. Even then, that may say "what" is happening, but not "why". Too many issues to resolve and not enough time. So that was a recipe for a downward spiral in the relationship between Honda and McLaren.

While the slow motion dissolution of the Honda/McLaren relationship was going on, Honda was likely figuring out how to address their testing issues. This probably accelerated once they had an agreement with Red Bull. They probably saw the light by then, and then Red Bull was able to offer additional help and Honda was probably more than willing at that point.

So... I tend to think that a test mule "might" have exposed some of this, but using a test mule is the wrong strategy these days. While some of the rules make it hard to use mules, the real reason is that there are better solutions. So that is why nobody else does it. The real miss by Honda was getting back into the game without having testing capability parity with the other manufactures.

There remains a number of untold stories that I hope come out some day.

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Originally Posted by GingerPixel View Post
Ferrari ran a La Ferrari with a big wing and a roof scoop, but I'm not ever sure it was confirmed what they were testing.
I kept thinking it was F1 related, and I think there is a narrow way this can be legally done, but Ferrari says "no" and I think I have seen a photo of that car on display somewhere with specific details as to what it was and those details didn't match the F1 specs. But who knows if that was accurate or not.

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Originally Posted by steve_r View Post
McLaren have paid the pain, and RBR will get the gain.
Yes

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Originally Posted by steve_r View Post
If Honda engines start going bang or they lose out on straight line speed at some tracks this year, it will be very interesting to compare RBR's reaction, bearing in mind the silly finger pointing against Renault of recent years.
Yes again!

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Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
i just hope Honda dont screw it up by thinking they can go full works again!
I agree. I suspect the current scars run very deep. That Honda has learned a very hard lesson. I can only see them owning a team in the distant future and the regulations have resulted in radically simpler cars. To my point earlier... If we are starting to see hints of power unit parity, then we can also conclude that there remains plenty of secret sauce to making a fast car beyond having a good engine. And so far... nobody seems to be better than Mercedes at both. And that is not for a lack of trying by their opponents.

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Old 21 Mar 2019, 20:59 (Ref:3892554)   #18
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Originally Posted by steve_r
If Honda engines start going bang or they lose out on straight line speed at some tracks this year, it will be very interesting to compare RBR's reaction, bearing in mind the silly finger pointing against Renault of recent years.

I do think that Renault under delivered for years and got results that were far beyond the investment they were making, with RBR picking up the slack.

The relatively instant results that RBR have delivered for Honda pretty well confirms this.
Where were the Renault powered cars in Melbourne?
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Old 21 Mar 2019, 22:01 (Ref:3892582)   #19
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Well Honda should be alright. RBR should consider themselves lucky they’ve got it, even if Renault delivered them enough titles

That is what RBR need to remember while they are criticising the Regie. The Honda engine is what got RBR up there though. And the other Renault engined cars were a bit behind, but we’ll see if they can improve. I’m not sure they can by enough though
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Old 23 Mar 2019, 02:06 (Ref:3892873)   #20
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
A test mule may or may not have helped. These days, I think, that on track testing is more about correlation and validation of your prior test regime and less about being the primary way to expose issues.


Richard
I wish that was the case, sometimes you get lucky but the final absolute result as Honda found out and I have seen is the installed PU in the car and out on the track. So many things can go wrong with the installation and it is always the preferred method of validation. I mentioned this very early in the peace when they were having issues and Honda later confirmed that the behaviour of the PU was different once it was installed. Honda would have known straight away they had problems but for some reason they never went down that path. I speculate that McLaren were on a year end deadline with Mercedes and needed the Honda to fill the hole in the back of the car at any cost or risk as they had terminally ended the relationship with Mercedes. I also speculate that Honda vastly underestimated the task of producing a competitive PU for the new regs but so did everyone bar MB. Ross Brawn talks of the difficulties of his relationship with them in the Motorsport video he was part of.
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Old 23 Mar 2019, 02:54 (Ref:3892878)   #21
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Originally Posted by Casper View Post
I wish that was the case, sometimes you get lucky but the final absolute result as Honda found out and I have seen is the installed PU in the car and out on the track. So many things can go wrong with the installation and it is always the preferred method of validation. I mentioned this very early in the peace when they were having issues and Honda later confirmed that the behaviour of the PU was different once it was installed. Honda would have known straight away they had problems but for some reason they never went down that path. I speculate that McLaren were on a year end deadline with Mercedes and needed the Honda to fill the hole in the back of the car at any cost or risk as they had terminally ended the relationship with Mercedes. I also speculate that Honda vastly underestimated the task of producing a competitive PU for the new regs but so did everyone bar MB. Ross Brawn talks of the difficulties of his relationship with them in the Motorsport video he was part of.
Never understood why Honda allowed their entrance into F1 to be so tightly controlled by vested interests. They should have spent the year previous to their F1 entry running the wheels off a super formula car in Japan.
They should also have embedded techs with McLaren to learn everything that they could from the Mercedes PU.

Do you have a reference for the motorsport video with Ross Brawn?
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Old 23 Mar 2019, 10:28 (Ref:3892927)   #22
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
There remains a number of untold stories that I hope come out some day.
I don't think you mentioned it:

Red Bull has a full car dyno. McLaren does not (Reanult didn't have one until this season either).

Obviously since Honda signed with Toro Rosso, the Honda engine in a Toro Rosso (and now Red Bull car) has been running on the Red Bull full car dyno and this is very helpful.
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Old 23 Mar 2019, 10:31 (Ref:3892928)   #23
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Where were the Renault powered cars in Melbourne?
At least one was parked in the pitlane...
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Old 23 Mar 2019, 12:19 (Ref:3892946)   #24
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I wish that was the case, sometimes you get lucky but the final absolute result as Honda found out and I have seen is the installed PU in the car and out on the track. So many things can go wrong with the installation and it is always the preferred method of validation.
So i will admit to being overly enthusiastic as to the "ideal" scenario of internal testing replacing on-track. I think that would be everyone's goal if it could be done reliably and cheaply. But in the end, and as you say, you still have to do physical on-track testing because you continue to expose issues that were not found previously. But in general I think what I talk about works (+/-). It is why we see such high reliability in cars today. Overall my point was more about the quality of your correlation (between internal design/testing and on-track performance). I expect someone like Mercedes has it and someone like Williams (chassis) and Honda (power unit) does not (Honda might now).

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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
I don't think you mentioned it:

Red Bull has a full car dyno. McLaren does not (Reanult didn't have one until this season either).

Obviously since Honda signed with Toro Rosso, the Honda engine in a Toro Rosso (and now Red Bull car) has been running on the Red Bull full car dyno and this is very helpful.
My post already was a novel and didn't know the full picture. I didn't have the details you mention. I had read previously about the RBR vs. McLaren situation. I wasn't sure (still not) if McLaren and Honda tried to get one prior to the divorce or not. I know that Honda staffed up in the UK while trying to fix the engine and I wondered if that is where they may have tried that type of integration testing. I expected Mercedes uses one and I know Ferrari does. I didn't know the situation with Renault or anyone else. Note that those at the front of the pack... have and use these tools.

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Old 23 Mar 2019, 14:27 (Ref:3892951)   #25
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Honda did start early...i believe the deal was first announced almost a 2 years before its first race in 2015. by the time Mclaren saw what Merc's 2014 engine would look like, would it have already been too late for Honda to change their design?

but even if they could have learned more from Merc, they clearly underestimated the task that laid ahead and continued to underestimate it right up until the end of the partnership with Mclaren.

but issues of strategies, testing platforms etc aside do we actually know how much more lead time Merc and Renault had?

from what i recall both Merc and Renault were the main factors in why the current engine formula was chosen so, imo, it stands to reason that they pushed for this solution because they already had their starting point/early r&d already in hand (and in Merc's case an ingenious solution plus a mega ton of resources to boot).

indeed it is fair to say that Honda did many things wrong (as did Mclaren imo) but even if they had done everything right would they still not have been victims of being behind on time?
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Old 24 Mar 2019, 07:27 (Ref:3893017)   #26
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Well, Honda engines topped the speed trap figures in Melbourne. At a circuit like Melbourne, I was wondering whether the speed trap figure shown it's very much about then engine, because the trap at the end of the start-finish straight is after quite a slow not-so-aero-dependent corner. It looks like Honda have made progress if Marko is playing down the chassis. Kvyat also did well.

Perhaps they also know it is not a very Japanese style of business to slate a collaborator in public. They may even me geeing them on by praising them so much.
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And wins will be tough against Ferrari and Mercedes, especially as they still have a relatively inexperienced lineup.
I don't agree with this so much, because Verstappen is now very experienced, although it's true Gasly has only a year under his belt.
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Old 24 Mar 2019, 09:10 (Ref:3893029)   #27
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Maybe, but I wouldn't say Max has quite reached his peak yet. The average age of the team though is younger than STR! That says something
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Old 24 Mar 2019, 11:16 (Ref:3893045)   #28
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The average age of the team though is younger than STR! That says something
So does the fact that Max has more race starts under his belt than the STR team combined.

Age does not equal experience. Max is experienced at this level.
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Old 24 Mar 2019, 11:19 (Ref:3893046)   #29
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Do we know this?
My presumption and others may differ which is fair enough is they they didn't and if they did it was either the installation that was the problem or they simply ignored the problems that arose. One of the main problems was vibration which did not occur in the dyno cell and was present once installed in the car. That much is on record. I still think Honda was on a hiding to nothing starting so late. I bet MB started quite a few years before and were developing as the regs developed. I am sure they already have the motors for the next set of regs in development now, the rest will still be thinking about it. it is a Germanic thing, every category that the German manufacturers enter they finish up dominating and it has always been like that except for very few exceptions, Porsche's last F1 motor being one.

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Old 24 Mar 2019, 11:44 (Ref:3893050)   #30
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It just seems odd to me that a company of Honda's standing and history in F1 wouldn't have put an engine in some old mule to test somewhere.
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