Race control to race car radio communications.

[JohnD]

You could find yourself under a flood of requests for advice, R59!

Here's one. "Noise-cancelling" earphones - these are £50http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=221951 but they are available for half that. Are they worth it at that price? Inside a helmet?

John

[R59]

Originally Posted by JohnD

You could find yourself under a flood of requests for advice, R59!

Here's one. "Noise-cancelling" earphones - these are £50http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=221951 but they are available for half that. Are they worth it at that price? Inside a helmet?

John

The issue with those is the shape/size of them. I'd wager that you won't be able to get your hat on without pulling them out, or they'd be damned uncomfortable.

I have Etymotic ER-4's, which were the mutts nutts when I bought them. They are a touch uncomfortable in my GP5 as it's quite tight.

As a dealer in Peltor kit, I now have one of their helmet kits with in-ear transponders (earpieces). They are smaller than the Etymotic jobbies, but not as good in terms of sound quality - but they'll do as I'm not looking for "Radio 4" quality, but good communications clear sound.

Whatever a driver uses, the connection must be easy to pull out. If they've got to get out quick, they don't want to be fiddling with funky connectors. A simple mini-stereo jack is more than enough for receive only.

NASCAR use conventional 1/4" stereo jacks for transmit and receive, where the SCCA/IMSA standard is the NEXUS 4-pole plug which is the way that the big names in the game like Peltor have gone. Stilo do much the same, but for some reason have the plug in the car, and the socket on the hat. Don't like that idea as it potentially allows "live" contacts in a car (even if it's only millivolts). Over here, one supplier has started to use a 5-pole NEXUS plug arrangement.

[westfieldbend]

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

The bikes have the black and orange flag on every post as a SAFETY measure. There flag rules are different to cars in that you are meant to pull off the circuit immediately when shown it. Mainly because if you are dropping oil you are a major danger to the other riders. Whilst bike racing is still motorsport, there are different risks that need to be taken into account when running the events, afterall, if you go off track on someone elses oil in a car you may damage the car, if you get spat off a bike, you damage yourself!!!

The 3 laps part of the MSA rules is unsafe, it can be abused/interpretted to mean, you must pit within 3 laps of the flag first appearing. Dont forget the flag means mechanical falure or fire, very much a safety issue. Also used to notify the driver when parts are loose and the car is deemed unsafe, serious injury can occur if parts come off a car, been some very nasty debries incidents this year...

I fail to understand why in car racing it is any less dangerous when the circuit is covered in oil, don't forget about marshals as well, was a near miss at lydden CTCRC this year when a load of oil was dumped and a marshal had to jump onto the tyres to get out of the way of a car that lost it on the oil, the car then heavily impacted another parked car, whose driver had removed his belts, ready to get out. A very lucky escape in all respects.

Admitidly bikes are inheriently more dangerous then cars, but I dont really see how oil on the track could almost be classed as perfectly safe, people DO still get hurt in car racing, despite it being much safer then it once was.

[Al Weyman]

I witnessed that live but the Motors TV cameras caught it really dramatically and yes the marshal was very lucky to get out the way. That was one of the incidents I was relating too that these radios may have at least saved the 2nd car going off. As it happens the Lotus Cortina of Les Nash was smoking for many laps and maybe it could be argued he should have been pulled off a whole lot earlier and it would probably have saved him a lot of money and definitely saved the hapless drivers who come on stuck on his oil a considerable amount of money. If we had radios as soon as the first car went off a warning could be given to all drivers which on a small track like Lydden would have been a lot better than a belated oil flag and I believe would have saved the Mini going off and stuffing into the parked Anglia.

Rob maybe you should have a word with the BARC or MSV with your ideas.

[Piglet]

I seriously can't believe that we could get a radio warning to competitors quicker than a marshal can get a slippery surface flag out. It's never going to happen that quickly. Even in an ideal world, marshal radios/phones in (even with Woolley's landline system), person controlling that radio/phone tells Clerk, Clerk either gives radio message him/herself over competitor's radio or tells someone else to do it.

Compared with marshal picking up slippery surface flag and displaying it....

The issue is as always, whether the instruction given to the competitor is complied with.

I do agree that many flag points are pooly sighted from the competitor's perspective (it is of course to move marshals out of the danger zones as much as is possible). Which is why I'd like to see electronic flags as now used at GP's.

[Al Weyman]

You are missing my point, the oil or incident flag at Lydden would only have been shown when you are approaching the problem, a radio would let you have advanced warning before you were anywhere near it and anywhere on the circuit and on a tight track like Lydden I think that would have helped.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Rob maybe you should have a word with the BARC or MSV with your ideas.

Maybe he should not. Please stop trying to spend other people's money Al.

[Piglet]

I think this is an issue that marshals and competitors aren't really going to agree on. In my view as a marshal, we have a prescribed system of communication using flags and boards - the problem is that it isn't observed appropriately by competitors.

I appreciate what is said about the difficulty of seeing flags and numbers but if that is such an issue then why haven't you all been lobbying the MSA to upgrade the sizes of number boards, amend the position of flag points etc?

Being harsh (and climbing off the fence) the idea that a radio will be something that solves all driving misdemeanours is IMO not credible. We'll still have the same issues, just a different set of excuses.

IMV the issue behind drivers spinning off under yellows and oil flags won't be solved by drivers being given information in their ear, it will only be solved by better adherance to the rules that we have and if that involves stronger action by Clerks on a consistent basis than so be it.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Piglet

IMV the issue behind drivers spinning off under yellows and oil flags won't be solved by drivers being given information in their ear, it will only be solved by better adherance to the rules that we have and if that involves stronger action by Clerks on a consistent basis than so be it.

Exactly, at the last race I did this year a car spun into the barrier at the Esses at Mallory. Two laps later while the car was still there with yellows still out another driver managed to lose it and hit the wall opposite seriously injuring himself. He was fully aware of the situation but the yellows made no difference so how ould telling him about it on the radio do anything?

[terence]

Originally Posted by Piglet

I think this is an issue that marshals and competitors aren't really going to agree on. In my view as a marshal, we have a prescribed system of communication using flags and boards - the problem is that it isn't observed appropriately by competitors.

I appreciate what is said about the difficulty of seeing flags and numbers but if that is such an issue then why haven't you all been lobbying the MSA to upgrade the sizes of number boards, amend the position of flag points etc?

Being harsh (and climbing off the fence) the idea that a radio will be something that solves all driving misdemeanours is IMO not credible. We'll still have the same issues, just a different set of excuses.

IMV the issue behind drivers spinning off under yellows and oil flags won't be solved by drivers being given information in their ear, it will only be solved by better adherance to the rules that we have and if that involves stronger action by Clerks on a consistent basis than so be it.

Thats it in a nutshell!
I think we should also not forget that there are some drivers,through lack of experience or just a plain inability,who would be distracted by a constant barrage of info,or would the radio system be dedicated to the offending driver or would it be that everyone could hear everything that was being said? I can imagine car number thirteen coming in for his drive-through and being told that it was fifteen who was called in.!!
Just be more aware of whats going on around you chaps,memorise where the Marshals Posts are and more importantly,remember/learn the flags,they are there for everyones safety,not to make the circuit look pretty.I really cannot imagine that MSV-R would be interested in anything such as this.

[JohnD]

Originally Posted by Piglet

I appreciate what is said about the difficulty of seeing flags and numbers but if that is such an issue then why haven't you all been lobbying the MSA to upgrade the sizes of number boards, amend the position of flag points etc?

I made those points to the CofC at the time. I've recorded his reaction.
I wrote to the Chair of the MSA Race Committee, asking that they be considered by CofCs, clubs and circuits when arranging for black flagging. Never even got a reply.

What do you want me to do? Picket Riverside House?

I think Castle Combe has a illuminated sign board, but I've not been there for a while.

John

[terence]

Sorry to say that its a very rare occurence to get any response from the MSA over such matter's.

[Andrew Busby]

This seems to have got into a fairly predictable debate, bit like anytime HANS devices are discussed (no, don't go there!).

My personal view is that this is a great idea; anything which improves / adds to / augments the information flow to the drivers has to be a good thing. This should be debated first and then there's a separate (commercial) discussion to be had.

Besides, if race control can keep us informed of the footie results that'll be a little added value on their part eh?

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by JohnD

I made those points to the CofC at the time. I've recorded his reaction.
I wrote to the Chair of the MSA Race Committee, asking that they be considered by CofCs, clubs and circuits when arranging for black flagging. Never even got a reply.

Good, well done, I wonder how many people have done likewise?

[JohnD]

Originally Posted by Andrew Busby

Besides, if race control can keep us informed of the footie results that'll be a little added value on their part eh?

You mean like at the British GP next year?
(Same date as World Cup Final)

Surely there's a simpler way?
Everyone gives their mobile number to the CofC.
Wears earphones under helmet, plugged into their phone (or Bluetooth)
CofC makes a conference call as we go to asembly.

I've no idea if that would work, but no doubt the appropriate gurus are here.
Would it mean you could talk to the other drivers then?
JOhn

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Piglet

Good, well done, I wonder how many people have done likewise?

Well I complained to the CoC that I never saw the black flag so he fined me £100!

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Well I complained to the CoC that I never saw the black flag so he fined me £100!

Clerks, circuits and clubs are governed by what is prescribed in the Blue Book and by the MSA's circuit inspections and their track licence with regard to flag points and the starting point so there is little that an individual clerk can do about the sighting of the black flag unless there was a particular problem with how it was being displayed on the day. If you're unhappy about something specific then take it up with the MSA - you can always talk to the MSA steward on the day if you want something reported to the MSA (outside of your own judicial issue). It's worth talking to the circuit to see if they can feed it back to the MSA as well but an individual clerk can do little to change things.

Part of the problem is that, for every driver who fails to see a flag signal there are always lots who do see the flag signals. It makes it difficult to come to the conclusion that it is a practical circuit related problem and not a problem related to an individual driver on the day.

[Al Weyman]

There could be a variety of reasons why one driver will see a flag and another wont, I was driving a left hand drive car with a tinted screen maybe that didnt help.

[SWCRacing]

Jeez Al, you just keep digging a bigger hole for yourself on this point!!
Firstly, the offence that you were fined for was probably "Failure to comply with flag or light signals". It's pretty open and shut - did you comply or not.
Also, if your defence included the info about a tinted screen you open yourself up to the question " does it breach C(b)8l of the '09 Blue Book regarding tinting of screens / glass?
As piglet said, the positions of Flag points are prescribed in the Track Licence. There are very few ways to get them moved on the day.

And Piglet, it's not only the officials who are governed by the Blue Book! It is afterall called "Competitors and Official Yearbook"!

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by terence bower

.........Just be more aware of whats going on around you chaps,memorise where the Marshals Posts are and more importantly,remember/learn the flags,they are there for everyones safety,not to make the circuit look pretty.............

Exactly.....well said Terry

At first time drivers briefings we specifically highlight that, if you are new to the circuit we say "familierise yourself with where the flag posts are, take your time to look around you....be aware of where stuff is"....we make a point of saying that to new drivers, but that doesnt mean that experienced ones dont have to....its just we expect you to already know that....its a bit of common sense.

Regardless of if you have a radio or not, surely and forgive me if this sounds a bit patronising, but, surely if you are driving a racing car, its kinda important to really be aware of what is going on around you?.

I think the idea of radio communication between race control and the drivers is, in theory, a great idea, providing the technology is there to be able to isolate the radio trafic specifically to the target driver if need be for , as Terry said, you can just imagine the face on the driver of car 13 when I say to him "no....THIRTY...I SAID THIRTEEEEEEEEY" as he stands in Race Control

[Bryan Degerlund]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

..... as Terry said, you can just imagine the face on the driver of car 13 when I say to him "no....THIRTY...I SAID THIRTEEEEEEEEY" as he stands in Race Control

Which is the reason we on startline will always repeat the number, e.g. "THIRTY ... THREE-ZERO" back to RC before displaying any boards.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Bryan Degerlund

Which is the reason we on startline will always repeat the number, e.g. "THIRTY ... THREE-ZERO" back to RC before displaying any boards.

Yep

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Bryan Degerlund

Which is the reason we on startline will always repeat the number, e.g. "THIRTY ... THREE-ZERO" back to RC before displaying any boards.

...and that's why you need good, well trained radio operators who have an understanding of what it's like standing on a pit wall (or wherever) trying to hear numbers and messages....

(actually Brian I thought that was pit lane bingo we were playing )

[Dave Brand]

Interesting thread this - lots of entrenched positions & prejudices on display! Sometimes you have to separate what should happen & what does happen. Drivers should see every flag, flag marshals should never miss anything, observers should do their job properly; problem is, all those people are just human beings.

My personal opinion, & it's just that, a personal opinion, is that in-car radios do have a role to play. Flags are invaluable as first line of communication & often all that's needed, but in many cases they can't give as much information as is desirable. As an example, one of the problems with safety car flags/boards &, more crucially, red flags, is the time they take to travel round the circuit; whether as immediate notification of problems, imparting more information than can be done with flags or simply as a back-up to flags, radios would make a valuable addition.

Just a thought: If motor racing were a new sport, what would be the reaction if somebody proposed that to communicate with drivers at speeds approaching 200mph you would just have people waving bits of cloth on sticks & that, for safety reasons, those people would in places be standing 20-30 metres away from the track. . .

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

,........Just a thought: If motor racing were a new sport.............

lol dont be daft....it wouldnt even get off the ground or be allowed if it wasnt already going!...there are soo many out there who would like us all to stop it now!!!....but thats another story!...good post btw