Sir Lewis Hamilton is the GOAT

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Is that really a spanner in the works? Not exactly outlandish.

Maybe I should have said a "Spaniard" in the works seeing where I live half the year

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

A point alluded to by Toto Wolf yesterday which is why he said "greatest of this time". He actually said he couldn't get into comparing Fangio or Senna etc.

Montoya as well he said. I think he did anyways, I will check the recording.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Montoya as well he said. I think he did anyways, I will check the recording.

Yes, well Toto's not entirely perfect is he?

[Knowlesy]

Well, I don't know about that.

[steve_r]

The BBC have dug this interview with Michael Schumacher out of the archives, where they ask him whether Hamilton could beat his record 7 WDC's. The interview I think was from 2008:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/formula1/54932452

(For anyone who cant access the link, the answer was - yes, records are there to be broken)

[crmalcolm]

The BBC have posted this today - if anyone is interested in a read of Lewis's career to date:

Challenger, champion, change-maker
The real Lewis Hamilton story
By Andrew Benson

[Greem]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

The BBC have posted this today - if anyone is interested in a read of Lewis's career to date:

Challenger, champion, change-maker
The real Lewis Hamilton story
By Andrew Benson

Now that is an interesting read, especially this bit - pertaining to the 2008 British GP:

The British Grand Prix in 2008 was wet and Hamilton was out of this world, in a league way beyond anyone else on track that day.

As conditions ebbed and flowed, Hamilton was at times lapping five seconds faster than any other car. He won by a minute and eight seconds. Massa spun five times. Only two other drivers finished on the same lap. Hamilton’s team-mate, Heikki Kovalainen, who finished fifth, was not one of them.

[Knowlesy]

Seems familiar.

[S griffin]

I’m sure we will have similar moments in the future that keep us hooked and make us marvel at what the drivers do, just need plenty of good and very good drivers out there and the greats too

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I’m sure we will have similar moments in the future that keep us hooked and make us marvel at what the drivers do, just need plenty of good and very good drivers out there and the greats too

I'll settle for very good and great, thankyou very much!

Good, just ain't good enough...

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Seems familiar.

I believe the team gave him pit stop preference over Kovalainen.

[greentrumpet]

[Knowlesy]

[bjohnsonsmith]

Not much changes then.

[Adam43]

https://twitter.com/mercedesamgf1/st...261848064?s=12

[S griffin]

I have to say that was a sublime performance by Lewis, even if he had got lucky with circumstances, like what happened to his team mate and the like. Stroll and Perez were unlucky with the inters for example, although Max's spin was probably not all down to luck, even if the car was behaving a bit strange. Still great drive by Lewis, let's see how he goes in dryer conditions in Bahrain. Can Bottas bounce back or will someone else be able to topple Merc?

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

They are as confident in their replies as you are in your assertions. It's called discussion and or debate. The entire proposition viz Lewis or anyone else is subjective, there is no right or wrong.

It's why I'm surprised. They only way I can make any sense of others opinions is to account for splitting hairs. Otherwise you could think Mansell was seriously deficient in driving a racing car going by the other opinions.

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Mansell isn't diminished because of FW14B.

Maybe not by you, but by others.

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Nobody could have done a better job in that car, apart from Senna.

I would put it to you that not even Senna would've done a better job?

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Nige could probably do things with a car that no other driver could. But could he do them often enough to take on a peak Schumacher or Hamilton? Absolutely not in my opinion.

I would say absolutely he could?

At his best period (halfway through 91 to 93), what can the others do that he can't?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

It's why I'm surprised. They only way I can make any sense of others opinions is to account for splitting hairs.

An alternative approach is to try and understand what others are saying rather than pick at some point that might not even be the main one. It’s not a competition. As Peter said there is no right or wrong.

Otherwise you could think Mansell was seriously deficient in driving a racing car going by the other opinions.

Not really in this thread. You brought up Mansell and asserted he may be better than Hamilton. Some disagreed. As Peter said it is subjective.

Now we have the strawman that Mansell “was seriously deficient in driving a racing car”.

Please try to understand others rather than splitting hairs. We’ll get more interesting, intelligent and enjoyable discussions.

[john ruston]

Nige didn’t look that good when he binned it going up the hill to Casino Square in the Lotus or the hands off wheel in Canada
Of course he was very good but not in same level as Hamilton, Fangio,Clark, Senna.
It’s pretty good to be considered in same bracket as Ascari,Surtees, Prost,Gurney, and a few others
Don’t feel to bad he’s still around and I understand playing decent golf at ProAm on LPGA tour in Florida yesterday and some of his contemporaries didn’t make it.!

[S griffin]

The whole story of Mansell waving to the crowd in Canada 91 is a myth from the footage I’ve seen. He did wave to the crowd coming out of the Island hairpin at the beginning of the lap, but coming into the pits hairpin, where he broke down, I didn’t see any waving and his engineer backs it up, by saying their was a problem with the software, although I think he also said Mansell contributed by letting the revs get too low and the car worked fine when they fired it back up again

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

...Has he wasted a point that matters since? Can't be more than ten. You need points on the board for when the engine goes bang.

it really is quite amazing. apparently LH has won 3 titles since his last mechanical failure nor do i believe he has finished outside the top 10 during this run.

for sure the car is very reliable and Bottas has himself not had too many DNFs for mechanical reasons so some may just discount this to car advantage and fair enough. and of course you cant compare eras because the cars have change but i do feel as though the measuring stick has remained constant.

bringing your car home across the finish line, avoiding race ending contact, finishing in the points, finishing on the podium, finishing first...these things have always been an important criteria for measuring races, if not the most important measurements. afterall they hand out trophies for a reason.

with LH (and Schumi) the sheer number of wins, 40 more then the next driver on the wins list, is just such a massive gap total that, imo, its hard to ignore win total alone as justification for claiming the top spot.

win percentage (with a minimum number of qualifying starts) is perhaps a better stat though?

if that is accepted, then Fangio and Ascari top the list with LH 3rd behind them. and then followed by Clark, Schumi, Stewart, Senna, Prost, Moss, and Vettee (im excluding some with few race starts).

to me this is a far more representative list of who should be included in the GOAT debate.

Mansell, for what its worth, is well behind in both metrics. obviously this is subjective discussion but i dont see how Mansell figure into this.

[chillibowl]

wins when not starting on pole is also an interesting one.

https://www.statsf1.com/en/statistiq...sans-pole.aspx

[john ruston]

Canada GP Hands off wheel
So Williams got story wrong?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Mansell, for what its worth, is well behind in both metrics. obviously this is subjective discussion but i dont see how Mansell figure into this.

Indeed nobody can deny that Lewis is the best of his time, or at least it would be a struggle to suggest otherwise. But for some, the criteria for being a great may come from a different angle.

For me, as much as Jim Clark was the epitome of a great champion, Graham Hill was always my favourite. My reasoning was that he came from being a mechanic in the Lotus team and whilst he had the skills they were nowhere near the level of Clark, so he had to work that much harder to get his championships. He didn't have the advantage of a local team (Border Reivers) with "modern" equipment to show off and hone his skills. He started with an A35.

But this is why people like Nige, James Hunt, Gilles V and Stefan Belloff etc. In the latter two cases we never saw what could have been.

[Greem]

We could even argue over whether Nige had the best moustache F1 has ever seen.

I dare say Graham Hill's 'tache would give Mansell's a good run. And there's Rosberg senior, Alonso, and an honourable mention for Emmo's never-quite-meeting-in-the-middle side chops.

Hamilton himself has been known to sport the occasional caterpillar, too, so this post is even more thread-relevant than I thought!