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Old 4 Nov 2020, 13:35 (Ref:4014853)   #241
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Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull View Post
The key is that, Verstappen's brilliance aside, who else is there to challenge Hamilton but his teammate? Schumacher for many of his championship winning years (I count 1994, 1995, 2000, 2003) had rivals in other teams to deal with. For Hamilton this only really applies to 2008 and 2018, possibly 2019 too although that seemed to be more in qualifying than in races! Thus, the teammate is far more important when gauging Hamilton than for Schumacher.
again, big difference being Hamilton has had competition from within.

Schumacher had a subservient teammate so had one less competitor by default, id actually argue that Hamilton has had a harder time because his teammates are competitive in identical equipment. One slip up and you're out of the title hunt.

Hamilton had tough battles against Alonso, Button, Rosberg from within his team and beat them all.
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Old 4 Nov 2020, 13:43 (Ref:4014857)   #242
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again, big difference being Hamilton has had competition from within.

Schumacher had a subservient teammate so had one less competitor by default, id actually argue that Hamilton has had a harder time because his teammates are competitive in identical equipment. One slip up and you're out of the title hunt.

Hamilton had tough battles against Alonso, Button, Rosberg from within his team and beat them all.
Narrowly beat, if at all in Button's case (Hamilton being outscored by Button over their 3 years together). Beating Alonso was incredible, especially as a rookie, but as for Button and Rosberg...? Hamilton did also have Kovalainen as a number 2 figure when he won the 2008 title.
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Old 4 Nov 2020, 14:41 (Ref:4014861)   #243
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Narrowly beat, if at all in Button's case (Hamilton being outscored by Button over their 3 years together). Beating Alonso was incredible, especially as a rookie, but as for Button and Rosberg...? Hamilton did also have Kovalainen as a number 2 figure when he won the 2008 title.
No-one knew Heikki was going to underperform as he did in 2008 though
Expectations were he was the next big thing and he'd do what Lewis did to Alonso to Hamilton himself in 2008

I'm sure your point still stands about team-mate competittion but it wasn't a Prost/Schumacher style "I'll take the weaker guy as my team mate and veto the competittion" situation

Lewis' curse at the moment is he's still active and still alive, so people love to try and decry his efforts.
When he retires people will start talking up his legacy and should he ever have anything as unfortunate as M.S or Senna happen to him, god forbid, he'll be the next all time legend that they are now, albiet used as a stick to beat him with.

His record speaks for itself. He's definitely qualifed for the "Greatest of his era" gentlemen's club with his results. That's probably enough for him to be considered the greatest driver of his era and at the very least part of the conversation for greatest of all time every time F1 fans want to waste a spurious hour arguing with each other over what basically boils down to what era they grew up watching and who their personal favourites are.
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Old 4 Nov 2020, 15:06 (Ref:4014866)   #244
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I don't agree that when Kovy joined McLaren he was expected to challenge Hamilton but he was expected to be closer based on his stellar drives in the Enstone in '07.

But I also seem to recall, Heikki may have been one of the few drivers available fairly short notice with Alonso's abrupt departure? Anyone recall if anyone else was in the frame?

It was '09 where Kovy really plummeted, though. That car was ordinary and even Hamilton struggled with it.
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Old 4 Nov 2020, 15:17 (Ref:4014870)   #245
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I don’t think Kovalainen was taken on to be a subservient no2. He ended up being pummeled by Hamilton so he just looked weak. Also, chunterer, I suspect you were right, they probably got the best available at the time.

Quick comment on Prost not wanting a weaker team mate. He famously suggested Senna and then endured that so you can see why he was wary of doing it again. He also had Mansell at Ferrari. He probably eventually just found it tiring.

As for Schumacher, that was as much the team as it was him, I suspect. And who could blame them, it worked.
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Old 4 Nov 2020, 15:37 (Ref:4014873)   #246
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I don’t think Kovalainen was taken on to be a subservient no2. He ended up being pummeled by Hamilton so he just looked weak. Also, chunterer, I suspect you were right, they probably got the best available at the time.

Quick comment on Prost not wanting a weaker team mate. He famously suggested Senna and then endured that so you can see why he was wary of doing it again. He also had Mansell at Ferrari. He probably eventually just found it tiring.

As for Schumacher, that was as much the team as it was him, I suspect. And who could blame them, it worked.
I think it's as much a team effort regarding Mercedes and Hamilton, with Toto Wolff as Team Principal, Hamlton's race engineer Peter Bonnington, who was with Mercedes when Schumacher drove for them, and since 2017 Technical Director James Allison.
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Old 4 Nov 2020, 16:00 (Ref:4014879)   #247
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I don’t think Kovalainen was taken on to be a subservient no2. He ended up being pummeled by Hamilton so he just looked weak. Also, chunterer, I suspect you were right, they probably got the best available at the time.

Quick comment on Prost not wanting a weaker team mate. He famously suggested Senna and then endured that so you can see why he was wary of doing it again. He also had Mansell at Ferrari. He probably eventually just found it tiring.

As for Schumacher, that was as much the team as it was him, I suspect. And who could blame them, it worked.

Heikki said on his Beyond the Grid podcast something like he wasn’t mentally prepared or he underestimated what it took to compete with Lewis in the same team, I can’t remember exactly. Anyway he said it would have been had he known what he knows now.

And as for Prost, I think the drivers he had as team mates shows that he wasn’t afraid of a challenge. Him not wanting Senna at Williams was more that he didn’t want the disharmony they had at McLaren. Nothing to do with Senna’s speed, he just wanted a team that was easy to work in
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Old 4 Nov 2020, 23:38 (Ref:4014920)   #248
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I thought you said he was lucky? I will read the post again later, but I'm watching State of Origin rugby league atm.
QUEEEEEEEEENSLANDERRRRR!

How useless are the blues.
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Old 8 Nov 2020, 11:57 (Ref:4015471)   #249
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This is off topic, and it will be my last post on it. But I quote because here's a guy who's not from Victoria and is a Melbourne Storm fan and he's quoting me, a guy from Melbourne who's a Penrith Panthers fan.

Even I can appreciate the wonderful troll the internet gods have brought upon me.

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QUEEEEEEEEENSLANDERRRRR!

How useless are the blues.
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Old 9 Nov 2020, 07:38 (Ref:4015590)   #250
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Why does anybody even care ? It's a meaningless accolade , and nobody will change their opinion anyway , regardless of whatever creatively curated set of stats is tabled .

Some drivers make you tingle when you watch them at work. Some manage to do so throughout their career (Senna, Stewart , Peterson, Alonso and Hamilton ) , some only for part of it ( mid- late Mansell , early Ickx , early - mid Vettel , early Scheckter , mid Lauda ) and others , too numerous to mention, rarely arouse much of a tingle at all - even if they were as blindingly fast as Prost or as all arms and elbows as Jarier.

The appeal of motor racing to me is the visceral excitement you feel trackside , watching a master at work .Agonising over GOATS is a joyless fireside attraction at best .
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Old 9 Nov 2020, 07:51 (Ref:4015592)   #251
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Why does anybody even care ? It's a meaningless accolade , and nobody will change their opinion anyway , regardless of whatever creatively curated set of stats is tabled .
Not sure why - but 250 posts in the thread suggest some people do. And yes - you and I are both in that group.

An argument for why it is a meaningless accolade adds to its meaning.....
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Old 9 Nov 2020, 10:59 (Ref:4015621)   #252
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The only debatable issue is whether it is a 5 minute argument or the full half hour.......
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Old 9 Nov 2020, 11:19 (Ref:4015624)   #253
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Most wins in F1 is an impressive stat, and that's all that it is. Someone's got to have it but it's not reflective of GOAT.
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Old 9 Nov 2020, 12:02 (Ref:4015630)   #254
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Why does anybody even care ? It's a meaningless accolade , and nobody will change their opinion anyway , regardless of whatever creatively curated set of stats is tabled .
This thread is a perfect storm. Who is the best F1 driver? Lewis Hamilton? Both are topics that generate lots of opinions. Combine them into a single thread? Bang! Off to the races as people post fast and furiously.

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Old 9 Nov 2020, 12:04 (Ref:4015632)   #255
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The only debatable issue is whether it is a 5 minute argument or the full half hour.......
Surely we can get another 6 days out of this before the next record is broken?
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