[WEC] New rules. New manufacturers. The 2021 and beyond positivity thread!

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I like it. The hypercars have to get on with it. It’s not meant to be easy.

I don’t think there is a track where the LMP2s would be quicker. You probably could design one though!

Hungary, I think there was the only victory of an LMP2 in LMS in 2010.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Mike E

The remaining tracks on the calendar - Monza, Le Mans, Fuji and Bahrain - all have long straights which should work better for the Hypercars. Let's see.

Assuming Fuji happens...

monza has long straights but lmp2 and alpine would be faster on lesmo corners and as happened at portimao, top speed won't be a big issues (for alpine at least) because lmp2/alpine will run faster through the parabolica, LMH will use the extra power mainly to compensate on straight what lost in parabolica.
At LM I expect LMH in the range of 330km/h on long straights, but lmp2 and alpine will be much faster in porsche sector that is the most critical part of the whole track.
Bahrain has 2 long straights and 2 not so long straights, but S2 twisty section is much more favourable for lmp2 and alpine, is a track more similiar to portimao as layout.
Maybe only Fuji could be a total LMH friendly track since it has a lot of fast turns where is not required a low of downforce to run it flatout.

I think in a technical and mid-fast track like silverstone, lmp2 would be faster than LMH.

[GingerPixel]

With a couple of years evolution theres potential for a widening gap between the hypercars and the LMP2s. Should the real concern be a more fixed gap between LMDH and LMP2? Perhaps the bigger question is. Does it matter? We've all gotten quite used to the LMP1s being massively quicker over a lap than LMP2 but does that need to remain going forwards?

[joeb]

Originally Posted by GingerPixel

With a couple of years evolution theres potential for a widening gap between the hypercars and the LMP2s. Should the real concern be a more fixed gap between LMDH and LMP2? Perhaps the bigger question is. Does it matter? We've all gotten quite used to the LMP1s being massively quicker over a lap than LMP2 but does that need to remain going forwards?

That is a valid question. Could rules regarding minimum drive times and stint lengths/refuelling times be all that is needed to keep the P2 cars at bay?

LMDH should be in the same speed range of hypercar, so whatever issues we have with P2 and hypercar would be the same here.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by joeb

That is a valid question. Could rules regarding minimum drive times and stint lengths/refuelling times be all that is needed to keep the P2 cars at bay?

LMDH should be in the same speed range of hypercar, so whatever issues we have with P2 and hypercar would be the same here.

That and tyres. Michelin seemed to have totally dropped the ball with this year's tyre. They're more than capable of learning fast and making something which can keep the Hypercars above the pace of P2s.

Similarly, 2022 P2 rubber could me made of concrete to slow them down at no extra cost.

[S griffin]

The question is how far do you go with the restrictions?

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by GingerPixel;4056961[B

]With a couple of years evolution theres potential for a widening gap between the hypercars and the LMP2s.[/B] Should the real concern be a more fixed gap between LMDH and LMP2? Perhaps the bigger question is. Does it matter? We've all gotten quite used to the LMP1s being massively quicker over a lap than LMP2 but does that need to remain going forwards?

hyp can't be updated, the only to get faster is to maximize the best set-up possible and to get better michelin during next seasons.
New lmp2 should however be slower than current restricted 07.

[GingerPixel]

I guess what I was getting at is that Toyota and Glick are technically going to have more freedom to alter the design in search of speed than the LMDHs, unless I've got the wrong end of the stick. BOP is obviously going to do its best to keep everything pegged back but I'm sure someone with a big brain at Toyota has a very good idea about where to find laptime through the alteration of something that simply can't be changed on an LMP2 with a 911s face grafted onto it.

(I know that the above sentences contain gross oversimplification )

[GingerPixel]

Originally Posted by canaglia

hyp can't be updated, the only to get faster is to maximize the best set-up possible and to get better michelin during next seasons.
New lmp2 should however be slower than current restricted 07.

Ah ok. I wasn't aware that the designs couldn't be iterated upon. Thanks for the info.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by GingerPixel

Ah ok. I wasn't aware that the designs couldn't be iterated upon. Thanks for the info.

once homologated the hypercar has 4 or 5 years of spec freezing, but anyway don't worry ACO is now struggling to balance lmp2/alpine/hyp, the best has yet to come when ACO would need to find a way to slow down lmdh without triggering a war between toyota/peugeot/ferrari and VW/bmw/acura etc...

[GingerPixel]

Originally Posted by canaglia

once homologated the hypercar has 4 or 5 years of spec freezing, but anyway don't worry ACO is now struggling to balance lmp2/alpine/hyp, the best has yet to come when ACO would need to find a way to slow down lmdh without triggering a war between toyota/peugeot/ferrari and VW/bmw/acura etc...

I imagine the "days without employee suffering a migraine" sign hung in the ACO office has never been in double figures.

Since this is the positivity thread I will say this. It's awesome to see new cars on track, and the prospect of more to come is really exciting. As a spectator, someone who got into racing cars because of all the vroom vrooming they do as a small child, it's excellent.

[Pandamasque]

I assume, working on LMDh concept ACO and IMSA must have known target aero performance, weight and power that were set for LMH. Therefore LMDh will have similar performance by design. And unlike in most cases where manufacturers really can surprise the rule makers by creating cars to the regulations, but with unexpected performance levels. With Hypercar the actual performance level IS SET by the regulations, therefore it was known before the cars ever existed. In fact the current LMH level of performance must have been informed by LMDh convergence since it was downgraded for the sake of "convergence".

I expect LMDh cars will be close to the current Alpine situation, but with a bit more weight, more power and more drag.

[canaglia]

as far I remember (because lmdh technical reg. drafts used to change very often) the lmdh will be based on lmp2 tubs, aero and bodywork made in 4:1, 1030kg, bespoke or road derivated engines bopped to 630hp + spec ERS 40hp.
Power/ratio made to be the same of HYP (that actually got 30hp more from the standard 670hp/500kw), same aero configuration/ratio too.
The real deal of lmdh isn't about better/worse performance compared to HYP, but about a much better economic sustainibility...
in short HYP manufacturers would spend 4-5x to go hopefully slightly faster than lmdh.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by canaglia

once homologated the hypercar has 4 or 5 years of spec freezing, but anyway don't worry ACO is now struggling to balance lmp2/alpine/hyp, the best has yet to come when ACO would need to find a way to slow down lmdh without triggering a war between toyota/peugeot/ferrari and VW/bmw/acura etc...

It's true that the homologation has been set for the cars, But have we ever had a formula where the cars did not get faster over time? Even in the current generation of P2 cars speed was found and nothing was allowed to be changed on the cars.

Furthermore, I'm not too worried about making changes, during the last race McNish mentioned something about manufacturers being able to apply to make changes for safety, reliability, or speed reasons at the discretion of the ACO.

[canaglia]

I give you the example of ford gt gte/gtlm, a car that, different type of paint aside, didn't receive evo packages after 2016 debut.

2016 6h spa best Q time: 2.18.380
2017 6h spa best Q time: 2.15.418
2018 6h spa best Q time: 2.12.947
2019 6h spa best Q time: 2.12.885

favourable bop aside, the car had an overall improvement of 5.5s from nowhere because multimatic got better tires by michelin and maximized their overall set-up (multimatic helped ford to design the road car, designed and produced the carbon tub, the whole gtlm car and was the company hired to manage the WEC program).

As I wrote before, we could expect some improvement in HYP performances but mainly given by better tires and an overall better set-up. Forget about that kind of "improvement" porsche 919 had from 2014 to 2015...

[Richard117]

Originally Posted by canaglia

I give you the example of ford gt gte/gtlm, a car that, different type of paint aside, didn't receive evo packages after 2016 debut.

2016 6h spa best Q time: 2.18.380
2017 6h spa best Q time: 2.15.418
2018 6h spa best Q time: 2.12.947
2019 6h spa best Q time: 2.12.885

favourable bop aside, the car had an overall improvement of 5.5s from nowhere because multimatic got better tires by michelin and maximized their overall set-up (multimatic helped ford to design the road car, designed and produced the carbon tub, the whole gtlm car and was the company hired to manage the WEC program).

As I wrote before, we could expect some improvement in HYP performances but mainly given by better tires and an overall better set-up. Forget about that kind of "improvement" porsche 919 had from 2014 to 2015...

I agree with your point, I just think Ford is a bad example. Ford carried a lot of sandbags in Spa because of Le Mans BOP a few weeks later. That 2:18 was not their true pace. The 2:15 to 2:12 improvement is a bit more realistic.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Richard117

I agree with your point, I just think Ford is a bad example. Ford carried a lot of sandbags in Spa because of Le Mans BOP a few weeks later. That 2:18 was not their true pace. The 2:15 to 2:12 improvement is a bit more realistic.

remove sandbags is however getting a better set-up

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by canaglia

The real deal of lmdh isn't about better/worse performance compared to HYP, but about a much better economic sustainibility...
in short HYP manufacturers would spend 4-5x to go hopefully slightly faster than lmdh.

This is where Jim Glickenhaus will probably argue that this depends entirely on how much they're willing to spend!

Is there anything in the LMH regulations that says you can't take an Oreca LMDh chassis, a lightly modified Gibson LMP2 engine, NO hybrid system, dress it in a swoopy blue bodywork, just like they do with DPi/LMDh, and call it Alpine A580 LMH? Not to mention that other chassis manufacturers may be there to provide the same kind of service at a similar price (Ginetta comes to mind).

You're not required to mess around with a hybrid system, and not required to agree to the prices and spares packages set by the 4-constructor cartel. To me this sounds cheaper than LMDh and I don't see why some OEMs wouldn't choose this path, other than the problem with the ropey and one-sided "convergence" with IMSA who are yet to confirm the inclusion of LMH cars in their events.

In fact, I'd say Alpine is the prime candidate, since they don't seem to care that much about the American market for now.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

(Ginetta comes to mind).

Although I am sad that I found that funny.

Balancing all this is difficult. Early days, but the ACO have done alright so far. The three cars are 1.3s (ish) apart round Portimao. Not bad, especially as the one that is 1.3s is their first race in the series and clearly coming to grips with things like tyres that weekend.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Although I am sad that I found that funny.

Why is that funny? Ginetta is every bit as capable of building a competitive car as the rest of them, as long as someone's willing to pay for that. It's the latter that was the undoing of their P1 programme. Then there's also Norma/Duqueine, Adess and probably a few more that slipped my mind.

[Adam43]

Obviously I was amused by their last top class “effort”. Nothing more than that. Surely you could just see where I was coming from and to what degree?

I know they’ve made a lot of prototypes that are racing. I know. I know. Yes they couldn’t get someone to actually pay for it last time.

But if they said they were coming to the next race. I’d wait until the race to believe it.

Take Glickenhaus and compare that effort. Such a refreshing change. (you can claim your point for correcting me again that it was a different rule set)

But it was just a small thing.

Can’t wait for Norma to turn up either (please don’t hate me)

But if all of those do turn up, blummin’ ‘eck the ACO have got something right! I’d love it.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

This is where Jim Glickenhaus will probably argue that this depends entirely on how much they're willing to spend!

Is there anything in the LMH regulations that says you can't take an Oreca LMDh chassis, a lightly modified Gibson LMP2 engine, NO hybrid system, dress it in a swoopy blue bodywork, just like they do with DPi/LMDh, and call it Alpine A580 LMH? Not to mention that other chassis manufacturers may be there to provide the same kind of service at a similar price (Ginetta comes to mind).

You're not required to mess around with a hybrid system, and not required to agree to the prices and spares packages set by the 4-constructor cartel. To me this sounds cheaper than LMDh and I don't see why some OEMs wouldn't choose this path, other than the problem with the ropey and one-sided "convergence" with IMSA who are yet to confirm the inclusion of LMH cars in their events.

In fact, I'd say Alpine is the prime candidate, since they don't seem to care that much about the American market for now.

Sportscar 365 published on May 29, 2020 that Ginetta working with “two customers” on Le Mans Hypercar platform idea…

Ginetta is exploring an idea to provide a platform for OEMs in the new Le Mans Hypercar formula as part of its aim to continue its top-level sports car involvement beyond LMP1.
The British constructor has been in discussions with two potential customers about creating an LMH base car for which brands can go on to develop their own powertrains.

Nothing has been published since that time then we can intuit that there was no agreement and there is no project.

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...form-provider/

I also remember Jim Glickenhaus mentioning that the 007 chassis would be offered as a platform for other LMHs.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Obviously I was amused by their last top class “effort”. Nothing more than that. Surely you could just see where I was coming from and to what degree?

Frankly, not at all. A small manufacturer builds a P1 car to compete with a giant like Toyota and shows pace straight away, at least on par with veterans Rebellion, and that's despite losing the primary backer of the whole programme before the season even begun. They qualified second in LMP1 on the car's second outing, less than 0.2 from pole! It was a true giant killing effort that ran out of money.

If Ginetta's effort was so laughable, why aren't you laughing about Glickenhaus, who with all due respect, aren't doing quite as well so far, despite being in a far more favourable BoP environment?

Originally Posted by Adam43

Can’t wait for Norma to turn up either (please don’t hate me)

Norma (under a new and very difficult name) are building LMP3 cars right now. One of their two cars is currently second in the standings in ELMS. I've seen at least one competing in IMSA this year too.

[Adam43]

You do realise it was a very minor comment? Nonetheless, you can have your internet points - you are so right. My laughing at the comment was nothing personal. I apologize unreservedly.

I just think it is unlikely that a lot of those turn up in the top class.

Originally Posted by Adam43

But if all of those do turn up, blummin’ ‘eck the ACO have got something right! I’d love it.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I just think it is unlikely that a lot of those turn up in the top class.

When did I suggest that they would? My point was, there's a way for an OEM to do LMH cheaper than LMDh, and there are several prospective service providers capable of producing a chassis for an LMH in addition to the 4 that are allowed in LMDh.

All the talk about LMH being 5 times more expensive than LMDh is pure marketing speak from parties selling the damn things.