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Old 2 Aug 2003, 23:20 (Ref:678202)   #1
Snapper Baz
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Snapper Baz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSnapper Baz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Just Curious!

Today at Snet' (2nd) a Porsche went off hard hitting the barrier head on at speed on the inside about a 100yards before the appex at Riches corner-the car coming to rest with heavy front/rear end damage. The driver crawled out un-aided though was obviously winded but got himself over the barrier. Now I know the marshal numbers where down but I thought that maybe there should have been at least one person on the inside as there was no marshal from the pitlane all the way up to Riches and beyond the corner-just myself for about 15 minutes. Not only that-there were no fire bottles in sight as I checked for some in case the Porsche went up! Then in the Britcar race BMW pulled off and parked near the gate on the inside near me with fuel problems-fortunately there was no fire but there could have been just like the Britcar meeting before. I'm just curious-why should there be about 8 or 9 marshals on the pitlane exit/startline-who, lets face it, hold a few cars, or wave a few flags when-in my mind, more could have been placed at other more important points. There was obviously a reason-just seemed a little strange.
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Old 3 Aug 2003, 22:31 (Ref:679023)   #2
Woolley
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Can't comment on specifics, as I wasn't there, and I'm not familiar with Snet, but just a few generalisations here.

You are more likely to get fires in pit lane than anywhere else. Drivers figure something is up and return to the pits, not knowing about the flames issuing from somewhere. You need sufficient marshals to deal with that and clear the pitlane. Same goes for oil spills, gravel deposits, etc. You need a reasonable number of clean up crew. There are also records to be kept and pit procedues to folow at some meetings, so judges of fact are required. Finally, many marshals are graded as specialist and wouldn't consider going on the bank as it's not what they want from their hobby. The end result is the numbers in the pit lane are not dictated by the mumbers available in total.

The next job is to place marshals where their own safety is not compromised, and one on their own on the inside may not always be appropriate. Thus you man the ciruit for the most likely scenarios, and if something out of the ordinary happens, red flag it and then deal with the situation.

Any or none of this may apply to the situation you describe, but as a general overview, I hope it is of interest.
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Old 4 Aug 2003, 16:43 (Ref:679761)   #3
Snapper Baz
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Snapper Baz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSnapper Baz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Fair comment Woolley!
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Old 4 Aug 2003, 17:16 (Ref:679782)   #4
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The next job is to place marshals where their own safety is not compromised, and one on their own on the inside may not always be appropriate. Thus you man the ciruit for the most likely scenarios, and if something out of the ordinary happens, red flag it and then deal with the situation.

The only place I can recall a situation where 1 man on his own on the inside of a bend being regularly used is Donnington Melbourne Hairpin, where A) the speeds are pretty low and B) there are big heavy blocks of concrete to protect you and C) because of the shape of the corner anything except a pull off is going to be a one in a million freak (not that pull offs don't have dangers of their own). There may be others but they're pretty rare I think.
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Old 4 Aug 2003, 18:24 (Ref:679836)   #5
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I'm just curious-why should there be about 8 or 9 marshals on the pitlane exit/startline-who, lets face it, hold a few cars, or wave a few flags when-in my mind, more could have been placed at other more important points.
I was at Snetterton on Saturday and in the Pit Lane. Yeah, there looked like 8 or 9 marshalls in the pit lane but in fact there were only two of us to patrol the whole pit lane which was a bit hard, especially during the four hour race where the teams were refueling, my role was then backup fire marshall for teams refueling, even though they had there own fire marshal i still had to be there just in case the worst was to happen.

When i wasn't doing that then i had to make sure that people weren't doing silly things like sitting on the pit wall or using cameras etc.

Another marshal was operating the Pit Lane exit lights and then three on Start Line issuing penalties for speeding in Pit Lane etc.

If i remember rightly the area where the Porsche went in is quite exposed, and not a lot of room to escape a big incident (like saturdays) i for one wouldn't want to be there!. During the F3 and GT's in Apr, i was on Riches and even then when marshalling numbers were higher, we had no one where the Porsche went in on Sat, but there were two marshalls on the inside of Riches. We had an F3 (on Fire) pull off where the Porsche went in, and the marshals still had a fair old run to get to it.
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Old 4 Aug 2003, 18:27 (Ref:679837)   #6
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I was marshalling at Snet on Saturday and it was very very short of marshals, it was touch and go as to whether there would be any racing as the MSA steward was not very happy with the track cover. I was moved from my normal crew to help cover at Russell as there were no course marshals there at all at one point. I haven't been on the startline at Snet yet but would think with enough bodies the place where the porsche went off would have been covered or a marshal not too far away, I'm just pleased that the driver was ok. All I saw from Russell was him spear across the track and then lots of dust.
All the races were very good but boy was it warm.
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Old 4 Aug 2003, 19:27 (Ref:679869)   #7
Nadine J Lewis
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Originally posted by Claire
the MSA steward was not very happy with the track cover.
Are there any minimum numbers of marshals figures that the MSA work to? I'd be interested to see what they are for all circuits? Then we may have some ammunition to get the marshal numbers up?!
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Old 4 Aug 2003, 19:40 (Ref:679879)   #8
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Piglet should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridPiglet should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridPiglet should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
From memory I think the blue book wording is "an adequate number of competent marshals" or something similar.
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Old 4 Aug 2003, 19:47 (Ref:679888)   #9
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Andrew Kitson should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridAndrew Kitson should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridAndrew Kitson should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridAndrew Kitson should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Baz, I have stood there many times snapping and have only once seen another marshal on the inside of Riches. It is such a great place to get shots and some very hairy moments as cars fan out at the end of the straight to try to get into Riches first ( especially Caterhams)! I too have wondered what would I do if such a shunt occured due to the fact that the other marshals are usually across the track at Riches 'in' and at Riches 'out'.
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Old 4 Aug 2003, 20:55 (Ref:679932)   #10
Richard Sneader
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The blue book used to say one flag marshal per flag point was the minimum.
RS
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Old 4 Aug 2003, 23:11 (Ref:680021)   #11
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stevebrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridstevebrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Whilst I cannot comment on that particular incident Baz, may I point out a couple of things about manning Richies. It is rare these days to be able to man the inside safely at most meetings. These days you are lucky to get three incident marshals on any corner. It is usually left to the driver to fend for himself as 99% of incidents there are breakdowns. Bottles should be out though on the inside, for the driver to use if needed. When my crew is posted there we put them at the end of the old runway where they can be seen but not hit.

The other problem is if you are going to man the inside you really need two marshals as you are working blind because of the armco. It used to be ok when the flag point was on the inside, you had someone to look out for you. Now though, with the flag point on the outside you don't really want to be there on your own. It is a difficult one to call these days but as accidents don't often happen on the inside not manning the inside may have to continue.

Steve B
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Old 6 Aug 2003, 10:47 (Ref:681140)   #12
Snapper Baz
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Snapper Baz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSnapper Baz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
It did make me wonder actually as the Porsche took a huge rear end and front end hit-the possibility of a fire was pretty high I would have thoughtdue to the damage inflicted. The driver was a bit dazed as he emerged on all fours from the car but got himself over the barrier-I asked if he was ok and and he said yes but obviously a bit shaken. Fron a previous thread, talking of persons (like myself)near an incident though without immediate marshal help I would have been ready to help but there were no fire bottles anywhere in sight-either in front or behind me. I dont know if it is common place to have the odd bottle at various un-manned (it seems to differ at some circuits) sites but it would always be an advantage if the worse case ever happened. The fire/rescue crews got there as soon as possible from the pit lane etc but time is always an important matter-I was just a little concerned at the time!
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Old 6 Aug 2003, 11:17 (Ref:681159)   #13
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This is a tat worrying !! I approach Riches at about 140..And assumed that the "exit" points at places like this would be fairly well covered...Sobering thought...But not enough to cause a lift !!

Having well marked Fire Bottle Stations around the circuit is a good idea tho...
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Old 6 Aug 2003, 17:56 (Ref:681457)   #14
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There was one marshal (flag0 at the end of the pit lane who would have had bottles. As there was no-one at the entrance to Esses, I volunteered to move from start line to do it on my own. Before I moved there were 2 at pit lane exit but he went to outside to cover my move. I only agreed after telling race control that the breakdown staff should help pit exit (they are based close by)

At Riches, the first flag point used to be on the inside and so you had marshals there. (2nd post on outside) A couple of years ago they (?MSA/circuit) moved 1st post to outside making it difficult on short days to cover inside.
On Sun I was at Riches and we put one man on inside for race start to cover 1st lap problems and open the gate for doctors car. He would then run back to outside before cars came round.

The move of flag post may be beneficial for site line/visibility but could have been a backward step for adequate cover.
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