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Old 26 Jun 2006, 21:53 (Ref:1642049)   #1
littlefarny
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Performance Diesel/AF Engine?

Discounting the R10's tech for the minute, are there any high-performance diesel/alternative fuel engines that would perform well and fit within a single seater chassis?
e.g. a FR2.0 chassis or similar.

And could you provide me with some links/specs?

Governments around the world are pushing this type of tech for motorsport, and AFAIK there aren't any series with this as their main fuel type, and with the general abundance of single seater formulae at any level, the development of a AF series could be quite lucrative.

Thanks,

Steve
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Old 27 Jun 2006, 08:11 (Ref:1642270)   #2
Al Weyman
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Why the push for Diesel, I think they are more environmentally unfriendly than petrol myself. I think alternate renewable fuels developed for existing petrol engines would be the way to go and maybe F1 should start the ball rolling as a high profile example. As it is you have the MSA's 'Roadside pump fuel' mandate that precludes experimentaton with alternate fuels at club level, surely that should be looked at again in light of the green lobby pressure.
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Old 27 Jun 2006, 16:22 (Ref:1642674)   #3
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I didn't know the MSA had that rule, that seems pretty bad with the green push starting to happen.

More thinking on this one, but from your comment and the general concensus, an AF would be the better way to go.
They work in sportscars (LeMans and recently the BTCC), but would they neccesarily work effectively at single-seater level?
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Old 27 Jun 2006, 16:29 (Ref:1642677)   #4
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In fairness to MSA I think if SR's allow it then other fuels can be used but not in general.
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Old 27 Jun 2006, 18:06 (Ref:1642744)   #5
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ss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I think the MSA are looking at it very hard.

The VW 'pumper' diesels could be very good.
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Old 2 Jul 2006, 00:13 (Ref:1645926)   #6
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R59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridR59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Now that it's out in the open, look at E85 which is 85% bio-ethanol, 15% U/L Petrol. Saab have the 9-5 "tuned" (a special version) to run on it, and you just need to built your engine to run on alcohol fuels. It's cheaper than unleaded (by just a little bit at the moment, but could be up to 12p/L cheaper if they get production costs down).

Points to watch out for on alcohol fuels.

It'll need up to 2.2 times as much alcohol compared to petrol.
It washes the bores quite well!
It'll eat lots of ordinary plastics/rubbers that petrol doesn't.
When it burns, you don't see the flame, it's almost clear.
If it burns, put it out with water (same rule, if you spill it)
Don't drink it unless your name is Clampitt.
Your radiator will need to be smaller.
You may not need an oil cooler.
You'll need a bigger fuel tank (that doesn't get eaten by ethanol)
and a few other issues which are not really issues like different cam profiles as it burns slower, etc...

Rob.
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Old 2 Jul 2006, 06:57 (Ref:1645998)   #7
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12p a litre less but uses 2.2 times more, doesn't sound particularly green or kind to the wallet to me!
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Old 2 Jul 2006, 08:24 (Ref:1646027)   #8
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R59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridR59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
In a road engine, it's a little more thirsty, not 2.2times more. It's just that you can get away with much "thicker" mixes with alcohol, which is where the power is at. E85 has an octane rating of circa 102-105, where pure alcohol is probably 115plus (someone will be bound to have the accurate figures)
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Old 2 Jul 2006, 08:40 (Ref:1646035)   #9
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R59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridR59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Oh, and green - as it's bio-ethanol, plants are not that efficient at turning carbon dioxide from the atmosphere into "fuel", so they 'eat' more than they store, so for the environment, there is the benefit of a net reduction in atmospheric co2 levels.

Have you seen the bio-power Saab? When running on E85, it turns out 20% more power than on regular unleaded. That will probably be the car's biggest selling point. Something that "just runs" on E85 won't be that attractive, but something that runs on E85, and goes better on it, will sell to the sales reps.
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Old 3 Jul 2006, 19:11 (Ref:1647499)   #10
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It does make me laugh that the 'greens' generally cant get terminology right. Green fuel does not exist, except with solar panels. Electric cars are not green they use electricity that is made from our power stations that run on gas or coal and have about 33% efficiency from fuel to plug socket (then there are losses in the car itself). Fuel cells are made from hydrogen that is made in an electrolytic way that is about 20% efficient from fuel to hydrogen storage)

Renewable fuels aren't green, they are economically useful. As our oil supplies run out if we can change the fuel usage to renewables then our economies will be safer and we will hopefully not crash into despair

I think renewables have been given the 'green' image because governments are desparate to make us make the transition. People dont seem to respond to imminent economic crisis but mention global warming and it gets a reaction.

To be honest I wholeheartedly support renewables I think motorsport is going to do a lot for the world in the next few years.
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Old 6 Jul 2006, 06:37 (Ref:1649369)   #11
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R59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridR59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Renewables like bio-ethanol, or bio-diesel, if used in preference to mineral based oils would lead to a net reduction in atmospheric co2 levels, therefore in that sense they are "green" per se.

There are other benefits of bio-fuels, spills can be washed away with water, leaks into water courses in small quantities are not too harmful to the evironment. Austria leads the way for renewables in public transport, Sweden is pretty close behind.

Motorsport, as you say, could do a lot for the world by showing how "good" th fuels can be.
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Old 6 Jul 2006, 07:05 (Ref:1649378)   #12
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Today the FIA/WMSC has announced that they will be encouraging the development of Bio-fuels ASAP for WRC
http://www.wrc.com/page/News/Breakin...855974,00.html
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Old 6 Jul 2006, 20:10 (Ref:1649830)   #13
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Make everyone run on hard road rubber as well, no problem if everyone is in the same boat, I would imagine the amount of slicks got through in some forms of the sport is very un-green.
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Old 7 Jul 2006, 16:35 (Ref:1650336)   #14
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Would it be inappropriate to talk about Drifting in this thread?

Formula Talbot was a short lived single seater championship in the 80s that ran on a veg based fuel. Lovely smell!
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Old 10 Jul 2006, 22:42 (Ref:1652939)   #15
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Originally Posted by Al Weyman
Make everyone run on hard road rubber as well, no problem if everyone is in the same boat.....
In one of the series run by our club, they have done exactly that.... and quite a few competitors have pulled out because they aren't prepared to go 10 seconds a lap slower, even if everyone else is in the same boat
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