WTCR 2022

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by TR4racer

Yes, a few good drivers there out of how many BTCC drivers over the last 20 years...a very small percentage made it because, as I said, most are not good enough.

At the moment even I could squeeze my old Capri into the top 13.

I dont think many BTCC drivers would see WTCR as a step up - certainly not at the current time for reasons hilighted in this thread.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by TR4racer

Yes, a few good drivers there out of how many BTCC drivers over the last 20 years...a very small percentage made it because, as I said, most are not good enough.

I would contend that most WTCR/WTCC drivers are not good enough to challenge for regular wins in the BTCC.

It depends on what you mean by 'good enough'. If you took the current championship - everyone from Michelisz down would probably be in a similar (or worse) position in the BTCC. Does that mean that they are not good enough.

The simple fact is that most drivers in any championship turn out to not be regular winners. BTCC, WTCC, WTCR, STCC or any other series you could list.

A question - of the drivers who competed in the last three seasons (42) - how many would be challenging for the title in BTCC?

[Alessio]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I don’t really know why the WTCC / WTCR seem to self destruct every few years, I don’t really know where the organisers are going wrong perhaps someone can enlighten us?

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Anyone care to enlighten me with specifics of why WTCR organisers are a clown act? Genuine question as I’ve only caught maybe a few TCR races in the last few years.

It keeps self-destructing as Eurosport/Discovery Events or whoever determines the regulations keep giving 'special breaks' to manufacturers.

Super Touring died at the start of the noughties because it just became unaffordable - the common story of all the great formula's of the 80s and 90s. But S2000 pretty much died out when they allowed the Seat diesel torque killer's, TC1 died because they brought the ruleset forward a year to the benefit of Citroen and to the detriment of Honda & Co.

Now, TCR is dying because they let yet another car that didn't yet meet regulations into the series (Lynk & Co) and have completely ballsed up the BOP and success ballast, not to mention tyres. We see this to an extent in SRO and WEC which does my head in, but somehow it still manages to work over there whilst it's a complete mess in WTCR. On top of all this, it's cheaper to go racing in GT World Challenge than it is to race top level tin tops. A Peugeot should never be more expensive than a Ferrari.

Originally Posted by pimmy

NASCAR's series, all GT series which utilise fake classes to dilute the competition, F1... far too many.

Once you get past the bs gimmicks of NASCAR, it's still NASCAR. GT is probably in it's best state for 50 years. F1? Probably the best era, ever.

Originally Posted by TR4racer

There is a budget cap of sorts in WTCR. Each manufacturer cannot charge more than a certain amount for the cars, I think it is around €150k but there is no cap on drivers salaries (a lot/most of those driving for manufactures are paid very well). Tyres are limited per race weekend and engine swaps are heavily penalised but everything else is more or less open

There is perhaps a cost cap on selling the car, but the running costs are exorbitant for what it is. Back in the days of TCR International, the budget to run a car for either a single event or a full season and be relatively competitive was manageable compared to what it's at now. I can't confirm this as I haven't heard any official figures given, but hearsay suggests some budgets are up into 6 digits nowadays...and it's something like £100-250,000 to do GT4 or GT3 where there's usually a larger online presence and better general publicity.

[antnee]

Originally Posted by Alessio

There is perhaps a cost cap on selling the car, but the running costs are exorbitant for what it is. Back in the days of TCR International, the budget to run a car for either a single event or a full season and be relatively competitive was manageable compared to what it's at now. I can't confirm this as I haven't heard any official figures given, but hearsay suggests some budgets are up into 6 digits nowadays...and it's something like £100-250,000 to do GT4 or GT3 where there's usually a larger online presence and better general publicity.

Surely WTCR is more expensive to compete in than BTCC? I'm sure the BTCC figures from a few years ago were around £250k for a cheap seat, closer to £400k+ for a front running one.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by antnee

Surely WTCR is more expensive to compete in than BTCC? I'm sure the BTCC figures from a few years ago were around £250k for a cheap seat, closer to £400k+ for a front running one.

In 2018 for WTCR - the entry fee was 150,000 EUR for a 2-car team.
The cars were about half the price of WTCC TC1 cars though, capped at 130,000 EUR (this is 139,000 EUR per car for 2022).

So for a WTCR 2-car entry, you are looking at 428,000 EUR for machinery and entry fees.
For a BTCC 2-car entry you are looking at about 50,000 GBP for entry fees and 800,000 GBP for machinery.

The running costs will be broadly similar for both sets of regulations; the only real additional cost for WTCR is travel.

[S griffin]

The WTCR had a nice concept going, particularly in 2018. It needed to be after the failure of TC1, even if we still had some great racing going on.

They needed to keep it sustainable though and attract top names, maybe even get a few from the BTCC and other series to make regular or occasional appearances. I think the concept of the series is good and they travel to some good locations, but they need to try and attract more to the series, so we can see how good it can be

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Just catching up with race 1 shambles. So far:-

12 cars on the grid.

One team withdrawn completely - due to unsafe tyres provided by Goodyear who come up as the title sponser on the Eurosport coverage


Team radio to the race leader telling him to slow down because they don't want to be penalised with extra sucess ballast in the next few races for which they dont know when or where the races will happen

It's soooo bad, I am embarresed for them - and I have not even got to the end of the race 1 yet. Many of the other tracks are hopeless for touring cars.

At least this is a track that they should be able to race at, despite the teams telling the drivers not to.

if motorsport would stop now and the TV networks broadcast Group A racing from the 80s and 90s Super touring they probably would get more audience for much less invetments

heck they could even air reruns of 2003 to 2007 WTCC

[Alfisti]

Absolutely. And my memory is so crap it would be "new" to me and I'd have no idea who wins 'til they cross the line.

Getting old sometimes has advantages

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by pimmy

NASCAR's series, all GT series which utilise fake classes to dilute the competition, F1... far too many.

it has a benefit however , for me at least there is no more need to collect races/ seasons reviews anymore given the poor quality spectacles we have

GT racing died about 2006 when they introduced GT3 rules, Touring cars around 2008 when S2000 started to die down (thank you SEAT TDI)

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Absolutely. And my memory is so crap it would be "new" to me and I'd have no idea who wins 'til they cross the line.

Getting old sometimes has advantages

a guy on youtube uploaded most 1979 to 1997 F1 races (usually BBC 35 min review per race) and it's damn entertaining !!!!! , I know who the champion was for year but results in each indivudal races I don't know so it feels like NEW material !!

also those cars themselves are so spectacular, flying sparks, big exaust flames, you see the drivers having to actually "fight" the car , force them into coners , do sometimes mistakes it's all fun by itself , plus the different shapes of each team instead of all looking near the same is great

[crmalcolm]

https://tentenths.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=75

[S griffin]

I just hope the series can survive for a bit longer, but it needs better managing. It needs to keep attracting big names. Have drivers from other tin top series come in now and again. It's got a good calendar, but needs more to be done

[auroan]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

In 2018 for WTCR - the entry fee was 150,000 EUR for a 2-car team.
The cars were about half the price of WTCC TC1 cars though, capped at 130,000 EUR (this is 139,000 EUR per car for 2022).

So for a WTCR 2-car entry, you are looking at 428,000 EUR for machinery and entry fees.
For a BTCC 2-car entry you are looking at about 50,000 GBP for entry fees and 800,000 GBP for machinery.

The running costs will be broadly similar for both sets of regulations; the only real additional cost for WTCR is travel.

I think you are under egging the TC1 car costs. The worst TC1 car (granta) was 500K euro just for one bare chassis, before adding engine, suspension etc. An engine lease for a particular brand was in the region of 250K a year. It was widely known that a competition ready TC1 car was over a million euros

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by auroan

I think you are under egging the TC1 car costs. The worst TC1 car (granta) was 500K euro just for one bare chassis, before adding engine, suspension etc. An engine lease for a particular brand was in the region of 250K a year. It was widely known that a competition ready TC1 car was over a million euros

Quite probably. To be more accurate, I should have said that the TCR cars were about half the price of a TC1 engine lease (just over 300,00 EUR in 2018).


The main point to remember is that the question was 'Surely WTCR is more expensive to compete in than BTCC?' I think the answer is - No. From a machinery and entry fee perspective, WTCR is cheaper than BTCC.

[VIVA GT]

World (and indeed European) Touring Car Championships seemed to work well back in the day when they were run to universally popular regulations such as Group A. Meaning that quite often competitors from the National championship would boost the numbers when a round was held in their (or a nearby) country. Unfortunately (certainly here in the UK) TCR hasn't taken off to such a degree and the more popular BTCC championship cars would not be eligible.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

World (and indeed European) Touring Car Championships seemed to work well back in the day when they were run to universally popular regulations such as Group A. Meaning that quite often competitors from the National championship would boost the numbers when a round was held in their (or a nearby) country. Unfortunately (certainly here in the UK) TCR hasn't taken off to such a degree and the more popular BTCC championship cars would not be eligible.

True - and that is why I think the right choice (currently) is to run to TCR regulations.

In the future - based on current trends - if/when eTCR becomes viable for 20min races on circuits up to 2.5mile in length, then we might see BTCC and WTCR merge again regulation-wise.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

True - and that is why I think the right choice (currently) is to run to TCR regulations.

In the future - based on current trends - if/when eTCR becomes viable for 20min races on circuits up to 2.5mile in length, then we might see BTCC and WTCR merge again regulation-wise.

will never happen as long as Mr. Gow is in charge as he doesn't want to be dependent on others for regulations

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

will never happen as long as Mr. Gow is in charge as he doesn't want to be dependent on others for regulations

Do you mean in his role with TOCA, or as the FIA Touring Car Commission president?

He previously stated that there were two reasons that NGTC was selected for BTCC.

1- cost compared to S2000 machinery.
2- ability for customer teams and private entrants to have success over manufacturers.

With the previous WTCC manufacturers all agreeing that customer cars match their preferred model of operating, then the reasons for moving to NGTC are gone.

But anyway, that's a topic for the future of BTCC, not the 2022 season of WTCR. For now, the season is stagnated. The rest of the schedule needs to be confirmed soon before it is too late.

[NaBUru38]

TCR rulles have been succesful. The problem with WTCR is the terrible promoter.

A good promoter would secure top entries and top venues. Instead, over half of the entries are amateurs, and half of the races have no spectators.

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

TCR rulles have been succesful. The problem with WTCR is the terrible promoter.

A good promoter would secure top entries and top venues. Instead, over half of the entries are amateurs, and half of the races have no spectators.

Agree with the rest, but I actually think the driver quality is very high. It's just the quantity is very low! And you'd want the champions / front runners of regional TCR series to move up, but apart from Azcona and Urrutia, I'm not sure many have.

[pimmy]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Agree with the rest, but I actually think the driver quality is very high.

The quality of the field is about the only thing WTCC/R has ever had going for it.

[Alessio]

The quality of the field definitely wasn't the problem. Norbi, Azcona, Monteiro, Girolami, Guerrieri, Huffy, Muller, Ehrlacher etc. are definitely amongst the best in the world. I don't know, perhaps we're doing the typical motorsport fan thing of getting disappointed when a ruleset becomes unsustainable. Most touring car and GT rulesets usually succumb to one manufacturer taking it too far.

Original GT1 - Mercedes
Supertouring - Everyone
Last GT1 - Maserati
S2000 - SEAT
TC1 - Citroen
TCR - Lynk&Co/Hyundai?

I think the thing that annoys me is that TCR was written to be cost-effective and somehow that was allowed to spiral, even with Lotti and WSC working in the background. I'd be interested to know what the avg was for a TCR International season vs WTCR. And, note how GT3 has now been running for near on 10 years as the top-tier of GT with BOP and it's still working for them (with your usual grumbles from those that felt hard done by).

[TuteZaek]

The thing with the GT3 model, that the TCR kinda uses/is based on, is the framework of the "unique homologated model" regulated centrally that on a GT ecosystem makes sense since cars are rare/special to begin with, so a stable model works for the makes, also we must take into account that the GT3 was never intended to be the top GT, it kinda became the de facto top after demise after demise of the designated "top series" one after another.

On a "lesser" (From the models represented on a series point of view) touring car ecosystem, there are many series and ruleset that are close/overlap to the TCR ones, the BTCC and TC2000*, for example, that contains models particular for the market where the series is running, that aren't present on the TCR, nor is feasible economically to make for the ruleset.

In Europe, where TCR has its roots, or some Asian countries, that's not a big problem, but for other markets like the USA or South America doesn't have to much sense on a marketing perspective when the only Lynk&Co on a country are the ones winning the races that week.

That and the centralised/client only nature of the TCR, while a desirable trait on some markets or series with less "touring car traditions" (where you could mount a series easily by buying the cars) or close to the manufacturer (as in Europe where you could make national and regional series.), a "world championship" with the manufacturer support doesn't bodes well with the original spirit of the series, (which was a high performance/low cost-ish formula, in fact, for the FIA, it was under the BTCC formula as a second tier for "national" touring cars, replacing the TNC3). The Lynk and Hyundai issues are a result of this.

Also in countries/series with a tradition in making its own touring cars, (as the mentioned ones) it signifies leaving the technical know how and independence of the series outside its own hands.

*Aside from the many many problems on the series, the TCR ruleset wasn't a good idea for the TC2000, or any argentine series, for that matter, because of the client nature of the ruleset in a country that makes a new touring series each week almost.

[S griffin]

Maybe WTCR needs to do thing it's way. TCR is fine, but it needs to make it so it doesn't run out of cars. GT3 was only intended for Europe, unlike TCR

I think having different types of tin top series around the world is fine. TCR is good in it's own right, as is the NGTC BTCC and TC2000. Not every series needs to be TCR

There are plenty of good national and continental TCR series, some better than others. But WTCR needs to be the best or people won't come

Hopefully the rest of the year will be problem free and we can have a great end to the season. But it needs a lot of changes. It's been through a lot. More quality teams and cars, plus plenty of top quality drivers, with the odd guest appearance. There are plenty of drivers from other series who can pop up from time to time

Sadly I can't see WTCR surviving beyond next year at this rate, but luckily there will be plenty of other tin top series to watch

[Matt K]

I can't help but feel WTCR is on the motorway to its demise and little can be done to prevent it. I can't imagine the "problem-free" rest of the season and a "great" end of it that you're talking about as it's impossible for 12 cars to make a great show. Let alone the fact we still don't know if there are any races left and if so where and when. It's a problem after problem and I can't help but think it's beginning of the end (maybe not even beginning?)

Unless WTCR has a big rethink and massive turnaround (like DTM had for 2021 for example), I can't imagine it surviving.