IOM TT Pros/Cons

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

Guy says it all, so simple and so eloquent - "of course it's dangerous, that's why I do it".
I cannot really add to that except to say that I identify with it completely.

Do you get a thrill out of cheating death ? How close have you come to it ? Ever seen the aftermath of a fatal accident ? I went with a friend of mine to clean his brother-in-law's brain and skull fragments out of the helmet he'd been wearing when he was killed racing a bike on the road. The guy's sister wanted her brother's helmet because she knew how much bike racing meant to him. I didn't see the body itself... but judging by what I did see, I shudder to think what the medics had to deal with when they came on the scene.

My own sister's family are related to Martin Finnegan who died 3 years ago in Tandragee. There's now a young woman without a partner and a little girl without her dad.

I'm sorry but Guy Martin's bravado is an insufficient justification to have people continually put through this kind of thing.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Do you get a thrill out of cheating death ? How close have you come to it ? Ever seen the aftermath of a fatal accident ? .........

Since you ask: Yes, not close enough, yes.
Saw my first fatal RTA at the age of 21, and that was 40 years ago. One dark night a chap was filling his car from a gallon can on lane 1 of an unlit dual carriageway. Problem was he was standing in front of the rear offside lights; car 100 yds in front of me thought it was a bike and ran straight into him and the car at 70. I did well to miss the melee. Now that is what I call a senseless death. Simple oversight, lack of thought, call it stupidity if you like. But it doesn't compare (in my mind anyway) to accidents while following one's sport.
Do you believe people should climb Snowdon, but not Everest because it's too dangerous?

[Bob Pearson]

This is all reminisent of that woman years ago who seemd to think she should be the protector of the " man in the street" and set herself up as a censor of films etc and tried to get pornography banned. She disappeared somewhere, fortunately, I can't even remember her name now.
I have a disdain for people who feel they are of such an intellectual level that they can dictate to the masses how they should live their lives, the last government was full of them. I think you are wasting your time David, this boy is on a mission, regardless of logic or personal freedom.

So, I'm going to get the car ready for next weekend at Thruxton..........Or should I stay at home?..............fastest circuit in the country, flat out from the Complex to the Chicane........I'd better warn the friends and relations.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by chunder

Craig Jones got killed at Brands, Surtees died in the most freakish way ever known, but these were freak accidents. Someone getting killed at the TT isn't freakish, it is expected and that makes me very sad, sorry

There was nothing 'freaky' about Craig Jones' accident. Unfortunate and hugely unlucky, yes, but bike-to-rider impacts with dire consequences happen more often that you'd think - just last year there were around 10 fatalities on closed circuits due to oncoming bikes hitting an exposed rider and sadly as recently as yesterday a 14 year old boy was struck and killed by an oncoming bike during a junior motocross event here in Sweden.

[chunder]

The comparison between the TT and mountain climbing is absolutely spot on.

They are both utterly selfish things to do. And have no interest to most other then the person comppleting the tasks?

That is part of the point. To the person involved it's amazing and a circle of fans who do the same or like that.

It also brings a new thought to my mind. When I hear of someone who has been killed climbing or in a boat on their own against the elements, I think "what do you expect you selfish idiot" I dont think, "what a shame."

I think what a shame because I love bike racing. Nothing more or less

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

This is all reminisent of that woman years ago who seemd to think she should be the protector of the " man in the street" and set herself up as a censor of films etc and tried to get pornography banned. She disappeared somewhere, fortunately, I can't even remember her name now.
I have a disdain for people who feel they are of such an intellectual level that they can dictate to the masses how they should live their lives, the last government was full of them. I think you are wasting your time David, this boy is on a mission, regardless of logic or personal freedom.

So, I'm going to get the car ready for next weekend at Thruxton..........Or should I stay at home?..............fastest circuit in the country, flat out from the Complex to the Chicane........I'd better warn the friends and relations.

Bob get your brain in gear... you can do better than this. There are plenty of positives to pornography. Tell me the advantages of killing yourself on the TT.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

....... I think you are wasting your time David, this boy is on a mission, regardless of logic or personal freedom........

Well it's been a good discussion so far and I sense everyone is trying hard to keep it that way, if the debate and argument are well-reasoned enough then we all should be open to persuasion (maybe?). I have to admit I think I am more cold and philosophical about death than many peoeple; I remember a schoolmate dying in an accident at the age of 14, he was riding pillion on an older schoolmate's scooter, we were all very shocked of course but it didn't stop any of us (least of all me) doing 'dangerous activities' - like riding a pushbike across the frozen Thames in the winter, or getting a sports car as soon as passing test etc.

[Andy77]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

Well it's been a good discussion so far and I sense everyone is trying hard to keep it that way, if the debate and argument are well-reasoned enough then we all should be open to persuasion (maybe?). I have to admit I think I am more cold and philosophical about death than many peoeple; I remember a schoolmate dying in an accident at the age of 14, he was riding pillion on an older schoolmate's scooter, we were all very shocked of course but it didn't stop any of us (least of all me) doing 'dangerous activities' - like riding a pushbike across the frozen Thames in the winter, or getting a sports car as soon as passing test etc.

Riding a pushbike across the frozen Thames ... that must have been in like the 70s or 80s of last century

[saddelbags]

Why is it that some people want to ban things they dont do but not things they do!!

[Hubble]

Originally Posted by chunder

For me, anyone who races there these days is not able to cut it at short circuit level so goes to the TT to conquer a different challenge and let's face it make money!!

Just revisiting this post.....I would tend to disagree....

From what I have seen and read the majority of the quick guys aspire to ride the TT from an early age, and only use the short circuit stuff to keep race ready for the road racing season...

And in response to davyboy.....surely the 'selfish' logic would also have to be applied to yourself karting? (assuming that's you in your avatar) Surely you can't state that road racers/mountain climbers etc are selfish when you take part in a dangerous pursuit yourself unless you are going to apply the same label....? BTW I'm not looking to stir things up here, just trying to make a point....

[chunder]

Sorry Hubb, what I mean is that most of the quick guys at the TT are not very top alien level guys in the short circuits.

I am tlaking currently about guys like Byrne, Haslam, Laverty et al. These guys have no desire to compete at the TT.

Riders like Cummins, McGuinness, Plater etc are doing short circuits becasue they get paid and its keeps them sharp.

Riders like Farquhar, Anstey, Donald and the Dunlops race on the roads in Ireland, I presume it doesnt pay as well and is probably more dangerous hence why the lkes of Mcguinness, Martin et al only turn up for the biggies like NW and Ulster GP. Bigger pay days again.

[Andy77]

Originally Posted by chunder

Sorry Hubb, what I mean is that most of the quick guys at the TT are not very top alien level guys in the short circuits.

I am tlaking currently about guys like Byrne, Haslam, Laverty et al. These guys have no desire to compete at the TT.

Riders like Cummins, McGuinness, Plater etc are doing short circuits becasue they get paid and its keeps them sharp.

Riders like Farquhar, Anstey, Donald and the Dunlops race on the roads in Ireland, I presume it doesnt pay as well and is probably more dangerous hence why the lkes of Mcguinness, Martin et al only turn up for the biggies like NW and Ulster GP. Bigger pay days again.

Donald is from Down Under and Anstey a Kiwi. It must pay to ride the TT and in Ireland

[JimW]

For me, it is all a matter of individual freedom. I hate people being hurt but I think that being refused the right to make a choice is worse, for them and for society.

I understand the attraction of "dangerous" sports/activities and, while being fairly risk averse myself, the signature says it all for me. Occasionally I put myself in somewhat risky situations; my choice, my call. None of your business.

Regards

Jim

[frostie]

First off I'm going to weigh into this argument, I'm a huge road racing fan. Obviously coming from Ireland it is, for most of us, our first exposure to racing. I can understand wholeheartedly why some people are against the sport and want to see changes made to it but I also cant share their views.

Racers want to push themselves to the limit and racing on the roads, whether on your own in the TT or around a field of 24 riders as we see in Ireland, is their decision. The selfishness that Chunder writes about is a fair point but just like a fireman or a policeman the riders make a calculated decision as to whether their job is safe enough to do on a weekly/monthly/yearly basis.

Noone racing on the roads is racing with a deathwish or looking to see how big an accident that they can have and still survive but equally everyone, and I mean everyone, that races on the road does so knowing that they might not make it back after the race. The acceptance of the risk and still doing it is what makes road racing such an exciting sport. I dont, and nor does anyone else, ever wish to see any of these riders hurt but equally I know that they have made a decision to race even though they might pay the ultimate price.

I always think that the phrase "the ultimate price" perfectly sums up road racing. It doesnt matter if you are racing at the front or the back when you tighten your chinstrap you are willing to pay for any mistake with your life. The quote from Guy Martin mentioned above was laced with bravado but every racer has to get themselves into a mental state to race. John McGuiness always says that he makes sure all the sundry things are done before heading-the lawn is cut, the cars are taxed etc. These riders know the risks and are still willing to race.

I have my views and I know what I think about this issue but I always hate how "real racers" try and talk down to racing fans who say the sport is too dangerous. At least fans know the essence of motorsport, they just choose not to enjoy road racing. I remember last year when a rider died in Skerries, Myles Byrne, there was a huge outcry of callers into an Irish radio show calling for the sport to be banned. I'm not going to lie, I have no time whatsoever for these people.

Unlike fans they have no concept of racing in any form and only look at the statistics of how many people die etc. They do not know, for instance, that riders cant just decide "I want to race a superbike on the roads." They only talk about the "senselessness of death from such an activity" etc. I have had countless arguments with these kinds of people in Ireland but whenever I talk about how many people die or suffer serious injuries in horse racing I am immediately shot down because "horse racing brings in x amount of euros to the Irish economy" or its a "cultural element of Ireland."

Road racing is a part of Irish racing and the riders that decide to race in it have made their decision to do, who is anyone to say they are wrong.

Davy, Chunder and ever one else that isnt a fan of road racing I'm not going to try and change your minds and I can honestly say that I respect your views because both of you are fans of the sport. I dont have any problem with either of you saying that safety should be more important, it should, but the fact is that at the TT and in road racing in general it is impossible to remove all of the risks, all we can do is do our best to ensure that the bikes are prepared as well as possible and that the riders recieve the best training possible before they pull on their helmets and do what they have decided to do.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by chunder

The comparison between the TT and mountain climbing is absolutely spot on.

They are both utterly selfish things to do. And have no interest to most other then the person comppleting the tasks?

Judging by the crowds that the TT gets each year, i'd say it has plenty of interest outside the people completing the tasks

Mick Doohan is at the TT this year, so he must endorse in some form what is going on there.

The TT has been "going to be banned" and "won't have long left" for the last 30 years, and still is kicking along. It'll be around for a long time yet, and so it should.

[chunder]

Doohan is at the TT dude because Honda are paying him to be there!! I don't think he has ever been before or shown any interest in it, he was the same with teh Suzuka 8 hour, they only went and rode because it was in their contract when they signed!!

As for crowds, it's the same as Le Mans, most go for the craic not the racing, you can't see bugger all, its insanely expensive to get there on ferries and the beer is dear!!

But its a huge holiday for most fans, take your bike, do a lap on Mad Sunday adn coem home telling your wide eyed friends about 200mph, 130 mph laps and how you had a pint with Guy MArtin, that bloke on the telly.

I have no problem with that, but I do have a problem with people getting killed there, whether you like it or not it's a bad thing!! The good things outweigh it but it's still bad.

[davyboy]

This will always be a highly emotive and devisive subject. The status quo permits road racing to happen and as a consequence a much higher level of casualties occur when compared to track racing.

In terms of me personally. I love most forms of motor racing, and have done for decades. I DO NOT participate in motor racing BECAUSE its dangerous. For me, the danger is a dreadful side effect that I'm willing to tolerate to a point. I wish it was eliminated completely... but I accept it can't be. There are people who do it because IT IS dangerous and the greater the danger, the bigger the rush for them. I'm not one of these people.

By and large safety at circuit racing has improved significantly over the years and I just really wish that the same could be said for road racing. The level of danger there is over the limit... beyond my point of acceptance. However, because it plays out in front of a [relatively] small audience, it sits below the radar. If, in 2011, a competitor was killed at every single Formula One Grand Prix over the course of a season's racing, do we believe that public opinion would allow the sport to continue ?

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by davyboy

This will always be a highly emotive and devisive subject. The status quo permits road racing to happen and as a consequence a much higher level of casualties occur when compared to track racing.

Can you quote data to support that claim? As I said in an earlier post, I have a vague memory of a report a few years ago that said just the opposite, but I can find no record of it.

In any case, this talk of "unacceptable" & "acceptable" casualty rates is rather pointless. In an ideal world, the only acceptable casualty rate is zero; we live, & yes, we die, in the real world.

[MGDavid]

anyone see the Murray Walker documentary last night? In it, Moss stated that he raced because it was dangerous (or words to that effect).

Another rider died at the TT today; I still say we need to see the statistics.
Incidentally davyboy - do you have a view of racing on the Nordschleife?

[chunder]

They dont race bikes on the Nord', I dont think they have since the ealy 80's.

In fact they dont really race that much there anymore other than the 24hr race, which is mental I must admit!

Maybe they could do a TT style event there? Staggered starts etc?

But ask yourself this... Can you imagine what the reaction would be if the TT didn't exist and the ACU went to the FIM and said, "Hey we have this great road on an Island in the UK...."

What do you think they would say!!

[Hubble]

Originally Posted by chunder

They dont race bikes on the Nord', I dont think they have since the ealy 80's.

In fact they dont really race that much there anymore other than the 24hr race, which is mental I must admit!

Maybe they could do a TT style event there? Staggered starts etc?

But ask yourself this... Can you imagine what the reaction would be if the TT didn't exist and the ACU went to the FIM and said, "Hey we have this great road on an Island in the UK...."

What do you think they would say!!

That set me thinking...so I had a quick peek on wiki.....maybe not the best source of info, but does give an idea I guess....

"While track management does not publish any official figures, several regular visitors to the track have used police reports to estimate the number of fatalities at somewhere between 3 and 12 in a full year"

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by chunder

They dont race bikes on the Nord', I dont think they have since the ealy 80's.
In fact they dont really race that much there anymore other than the 24hr race, which is mental I must admit!
Maybe they could do a TT style event there? Staggered starts etc?
But ask yourself this... Can you imagine what the reaction would be if the TT didn't exist and the ACU went to the FIM and said, "Hey we have this great road on an Island in the UK...."
What do you think they would say!!

yeah sorry, I was thinking of bikes in Touristfahrten and car racing all at the same time. There's plenty of racing there still, VLN series and several good old-car meetings, I've raced there several times myself (and will be back in September).
I'm not familiar with the admin structure for bikes - do FIM have jurisdiction over National events?
Thanks for the stats Hubble - even if anecdotal, it's a start.

[strider]

I wouldn't normally join in a debate like this, but I did see the film 'TT3D Closer to the Edge' a couple of weeks ago and it made me think long and hard about all this. My views now coincide pretty much exactly with what Frostie said earlier.

If you haven't seen the film, you really should. I had a phone call from my son yesterday. He'd just been to see it in London on my advice and he was bubbling with excitement about it. Guy Martin is his new hero, BUT, and this is the important point thing for me, he said I wouldn't catch him riding round the TT course in a million years. This from someone who has owned bikes and done test days at Donington Park, but he's smart enough to analyse the risks and recognize they're not for him.

But if others look at the risks and still want to go ahead that's their choice. If you try to stop them you're taking away the fundamental right of freedom of choice. This is driven home most poignantly in the film by a New Zealand woman whose husband is killed. She's not angry or bitter at all. Sad, obviously, but she recognizes that if you take the risks you have to accept the possible consequences.

[Andy77]

Originally Posted by Hubble

That set me thinking...so I had a quick peek on wiki.....maybe not the best source of info, but does give an idea I guess....

"While track management does not publish any official figures, several regular visitors to the track have used police reports to estimate the number of fatalities at somewhere between 3 and 12 in a full year"

That's a pretty good figure, actually. I remember a couple years back I spoke to a guy at the tourist entry and he told about something like 3-6 fatalities (mainly bikes) per month during the tourist drives and an estimated 20-30 accidents per month.

[davyboy]

A question for those who support the continuation of road racing :

You believe that those participating, in what [only some on here acknowledge] is an extremely dangerous activity, know exactly the risks they're taking and the downstream consequences on their dependents/family etc... should they be killed. This is why it should be allowed to continue.
You believe that society interference in something that ostensibly only affects these individuals* is wrong and encroaches on our freedoms.
Do you therefore believe that society should allow anything to take place, irrespective of how lethal it is, provided it only affects those who take part in it ?

* I appreciate that many marshals and spectators have also been killed during road races, but for now, let's just concentrate on the riders.