the Great Juan was driving a damaged car. Amazing

[BBKing]

Montoya's car damaged in hit with Ralf

Williams drivers made contact at the start



Montoya: damaged steering arm explains lack of pace


After claiming the front row of the grid in qualifying, the Williams-BMW drivers actually made contact at the first corner of a hectic European Grand Prix opening lap, by the end of which neither could prevent Ferrari from taking the initiative.

"I had a good start and passed Juan at the first corner because I had the advantage of new tyres," said Schumacher Jr. Montoya, however, appeared to be squeezed and suffered a bent steering arm in the scramble.

Ultimately, however, the Ferrari race pace was too hot for Williams to handle and after contact with David Coulthard just before their scheduled pit stops, Montoya failed to finish the third successive race he has started from pole position.

Despite starting on different tyres - Montoya used the softer Michelin and Ralf Schumacher the harder tyre - both drivers were in trouble trying to run on a heavier one-stop fuel load than the two-stopping Ferraris. Schumacher Jr was forced to concede the final podium place to Kimi Raikkonen's McLaren.

"We had a poor performance today," admitted chief operations engineer Sam Michael. "We had similar problems to Monaco where we had extreme wear on the rear tyres of both cars. We had to pull Ralf's pit stop forward by a long way but Juan unfortunately didn't make it that far. We have a lot of work to do and it's clear where our problem lies."

Source http://www.autosport.com/newsitem.asp?id=19557&s=5

Do I have to give out some humble pies again?....LOL

[Adam43]

I read this on Autosport and also on this forum (I think that whoever wrote it here got it from Autosport too). I haven't seen a quote from anyone at Williams about this or seen it anywhere else. It isn't mentioned on http://www.williamsf1.co.uk/ either.

I wondered if there was confirmation anywhere else.

[BBKing]

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
I read this on Autosport and also on this forum (I think that whoever wrote it here got it from Autosport too). I haven't seen a quote from anyone at Williams about this or seen it anywhere else. It isn't mentioned on http://www.williamsf1.co.uk/ either.

I wondered if there was confirmation anywhere else.

Too good to be true? Probably. But we are talking about the Great Juan here. Not just about any other driver.....LOL

[neilap]

I thought all the suspension and steering parts were made from carbon fiber!

[Wrex]

BBK its not humble pies your making here, but porkie pies.

I think you've quoted yet another dud story my friend. Here's a thought, how did the 'Great Juan' let a poor driver like Ralf get that close to him, or, dare I say this, convincingly pass him?

Or was this because of his tyres?

[freud]

It is sensible that Ralf's overenthusiastic and too some extent frustrated manouvere on JPM which resulted in them slightly touching each other, might have caused damage on JPM's suspension. He was just pi***d off after JPM's qualifying performance.

[f1manoz]

There is no way Ralf can be blamed for any incident at the start. He made a better one and was entitled to fight for the lead.

JPM may have been driving with a damaged car, and I did read a report somewhere about it, but it was unsubstantiated so I'm not going to believe it until I get official word from the Williams team.

[Mr V]

Rafe made the better start on sunday, but it can be clearly seen from the overhead camera shot that they "touched". Whether or not it damaged JPM's car, i'm not too sure, but it would answer the question as to why JPM's tyre wore so much more than Rafes!

[BBKing]

Originally posted by Wrex
BBK its not humble pies your making here, but porkie pies.

I think you've quoted yet another dud story my friend. Here's a thought, how did the 'Great Juan' let a poor driver like Ralf get that close to him, or, dare I say this, convincingly pass him?

Or was this because of his tyres?

Dud story? It does not say Schumacher is great therefore is dud? I got it....LOL
Halfie is not as good as the Great Juan but is not as bad as Barrichello. You have to agree on that one. Yet Barrichello is able to embarrass Schumacher from time to time so is not that bad that Halfie embarrass the Great Juan from time to time....LOL

[Jukebox]

Ralf chose the harder compound tyres, Montoya made a mistake to go on soft compound, that's what i heard on the live coverage.

[mac]

Turn it up BBKing! You are clutching at straws. Ralf's start and first corner were completely legit and I would say the first time in years that he has shown the "racer's edge". He outdrove Juan at the start.

As for Juan driving with a damaged car .... who gives a ****? Guys drive with damaged cars every weekend. Webber has driven with a damaged car at just about every second race.

[z2252314]

This is why people like me take pleasure in pointing out his mistakes. It's not because I hate JPM, but rather, just trying to bring some of his blinded fans down to earth.
Points to remember about the ring:-

1) Ralf outbreaked JPM fair and square. He showed more courage, and perhaps his agression was a result of JPM's swerve at the start(which is perfectly legal).

2) Ralf outraced JPM. This may be due to the tyres since Juan went for the glory on Saturday and chose the supersoft tyre to qualify on. I could understand why Ralf went on a one stopper, he had the harder tyre and thought it would last(it didnt). But it seemed a crazy strategy for Juan to try a 1 stopper on the softer tyre. For this choice, he has no one else to blame but himself. At the end of the day, the driver has the best understanding of how the tyres are wearing. He didnt do his homework on Friday, and he paid the penalty on Sunday.

3) Juan done a stupid mistake which took out DC. This is where the damage took place!!! I wouldnt be suprised if he had a broken steering coloumn after that shunt.

P.S Neither Williams or Juan have complained of a broken steering due to the first corner graze. Logic tells me that both these parties would have better information on the status of the car than some autosport journalist. Which begs the question "How did this journalist find out that JPM had a broken steering coloumn?". We must remember, journalists are prone to bias just like all of us here.

[Jukebox]

Originally posted by z2252314
2) Ralf outraced JPM. This may be due to the tyres since Juan went for the glory on Saturday and chose the supersoft tyre to qualify on. I could understand why Ralf went on a one stopper, he had the harder tyre and thought it would last(it didnt). But it seemed a crazy strategy for Juan to try a 1 stopper on the softer tyre. For this choice, he has no one else to blame but himself. At the end of the day, the driver has the best understanding of how the tyres are wearing. He didnt do his homework on Friday, and he paid the penalty on Sunday.

I agree with the point number 2, i think Montoya chose this strategy as to have a better pace to catch up with the Ferraris. But he fails to realise that it's not the tyre choice that's going to make a difference because clearly BMW engine just can't compete with the Ferrari.

Wrong choice of tyres, strategy and hard headed that's why.

[Valve Bounce]

[img]http://www.**************************/smilies/arrow.gif[/img]

[Valve Bounce]

JPM made the mistake of swerving to the RHS of the track, off the racing line and as a result had less traction. Not the first time he made this bungle. It still remains unresolved the huge contretemps JPM had during morning warm up when he was very late going onto the track.
I would also state here that hte post by "Z with a number for a name" is a flame bait.

Valve[img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

[freud]

z2252314, cool down.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by z2252314
This is why people like me take pleasure in pointing out his mistakes.

Come on...

I wouldnt be suprised if he had a broken steering coloumn after that shunt.

I would! It was the rear of his car that hit DC. The back stepped out and hit DCs front right. I wouldn't be surprised if DC had a broken steering arm!

Logic tells me that both these parties would have better information on the status of the car than some autosport journalist.

Not if it's Mark Hughes, he knows everything.

On point 2), I would like to make a point for discussion. Hopefully it won't go pear-shaped! And it should be realised that this is not trying to make either Ralf or Montoya sound good or bad (and it doesn't!).

Traditionally Montoya has always been the one that chooses the harder option (French GP last year and Austria this year to name but two). So I would be surprised if he did it for the glory of pole. I think that he and the team got it completely wrong.

Another quite interesting point (?) is that there has been a lot of times when the two team mates have had different compounds and it hasn't resulted in different strategies. In Austria it just meant that Montoya could safely go longer before stopping and this has mainly been the difference. I think it shows that the two compounds from Michelin are generally quite similar (and/or circuits have a best strategy that is largely independent of tyre choice).

[Jack racer]

A softer compoud doesn't aways mean more wear. They are very close. You tend to slide less on the softer compound, suits some driving styles

[f1manoz]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
I would also state here that hte post by "Z with a number for a name" is a flame bait.

VB, half the threads started nowadays are unadulterated flame bait with no attempt at starting proper discussion. This sort of thing is nothing new.

[Gt_R]

?

On my tv set, what i heard on the commentators was that JPM blamed his accident with DC down to very worn tires...that he quote Starsports "screaming" at his pit crews... But nobody complained about broken suspension arms, blah blah... Just an excuse to cover JPM's poor race today (really there is no need to, even the best have their off-races) and glorify him meanwhile?

"half the threads started nowadays are unadulterated flame bait with no attempt at starting proper discussion."

Leave z alone on this one... of the "half the threads" you mentioned, 90% of them are against Ferrari/Michael...

[z2252314]

Thanks Gt. Im just pointing out the fact that JPM made a few mistakes last week. I dont consider this flame bait. The topic asserts that JPM had a great race because he was driving a damaged car. Im just giving a different opinion, which I believe most would agree, is much more accurate than BBKings version. I made the following 3 points

1) Ralfs move was fair
2) JPM made the wrong tyre choice on Sat which he has to take the blame for.
3) JPM was at fault in the DC incident which again he should take full responsibilty for.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by z2252314

1) Ralfs move was fair

Yep.

2) JPM made the wrong tyre choice on Sat which he has to take the blame for.

True, but your spin on it maximises the bait (intentionally or unintentionally). Ralf's harder tyres went off quickly too. I suspect he was taking a calculated risk. One which, as you rightly say, didn't work. But he wasn't really that much worse off than Ralf. So both tyres (for the Williams) were a bad choice. Undoubtedly the soft were worse, but not by much. Montoya might have been having more problems with the other compound anyway. Perhaps for him the others made his car really bad, whereas Ralf could live with them. Who knows.

3) JPM was at fault in the DC incident which again he should take full responsibility for.

Again you are right it was Montoya's fault. However the bait has been maximised again (intentionally or unintentionally) because you give no indication that Montoya has indeed taken responsibility.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Jack racer
A softer compoud doesn't aways mean more wear. They are very close. You tend to slide less on the softer compound, suits some driving styles

This is an excellent point (and probably wasted in this thread). The tyre companies bring two compounds and these are vaguely referred to as soft and hard.

Many things can effect the choice of tyre. The overall durability and performance are generally the most important. But both these factors can be effected by set-up and driving styles. Not to mention the other parameters of track grip, weather and temperature. All of which have been guessed at prior to leaving for the GP.

It is quite possible that what is vaguely referred to as the "harder" tyre could well be grippier and wear more than the "softer" tyre in the right circumstances.

[z2252314]

I concede that Montoya did partially accept the blame. However, I thought that his attempt to shift the blame towards the Williams crew for not bringing him in was a bit lame. When I say full responsibility, I mean something like:-

"My tyres were gone, it was my fault, I just made a mistake and im sorry for taking out DC" end of story!

however his apology came across more like

"My tyres were gone, I was telling the team but they just said to stay out. My tyres were cr@p and they decided not to bring me in, and i just lost it."

Im certain that the wording is incorrect, but the general zist isnt too far off in my opinion. My point is, that a driver of his talent should understand that when his tyres are going off, to adjust his braking points accordingly. The crash was not caused by tyres, but rather a misjudgement on JPM's part.

Im not bashing JPM, I am merely critisizing him. I dont understand why members are getting so frustrated at my posts. Im not saying Juan is a loser, or that he is a bad driver, or that he doesnt have a brain. Im just making the point that Juan screwed up last weekend, and no, in my opinion "Juan the great" was not battling with a broken steering coloumn. I just wish some members could learn to live with the fact that he's still far from being the great driver people hype him up to be. A fair assesment, not flame bait, in my opinion.

[Adam43]

I really don't see it as Montoya saying anything bad towards the team. He asked to come in, they told him to wait and in that time he spun. He didn't say he spun because they left him out, he said he spun while he was left out. And, to be fair, even if he did say it was because they left him out this is not necessarily blaming the team as such. They might think that if they brought him in he might have lost track position/ruined his strategy and only finished 6th or something. In which case the reasoning could be it was worth the risk of you spinning.

Obviously we will have to agree to disagree over what I both think we feel is a minor point. I see no point in accusing a driver of being nasty when he is just saying how it is. On this point I feel it is an unfair assessment. I bet the Williams team hasn't given it a thought! (Which probably makes the two of us look silly! )

He was adjusting his braking points to cope with it. It's just that when he was defending DC he was off line on the inside. Introducing an unknown. He tried to adapt to this by braking early (much earlier than DC in fact), but didn't make it.

One thing is clear. It was Montoya's fault and does indeed prove that he isn't perfect. This is IMO a fair assessment. However it hardly proves that he is the worse driver in the world and doesn't warrant so much glee when pointing out!

I would also like to say I was one of the first to poor cold water on the steering arm thing.

What do say we have a , although it might be a bit early for you down under(?).