best endurance racing series

[Nick49]

Hello

I voted for LM(E)S because I love the (Endurance) aspect of it especially when I record all 6 hours of it much to the delight of my wife and two daughters! Would be nice to see at least six races in Europe as well as Le Mans.

Following closely is the ALMS and the FIAGT with their 3 hour(ish) formats. I have only read about GrandAM so far, as I only became aware of the Channel 5(?) broadcasts at the end of last season. Despite the rather strange looking cars the racing does seem good. Just got to try and watch it this season.

Nick

[Adam43]

I follow what you are saying there Nick49. The endurance thing is what does it for me too. The ALMS isn't quite long enough for me, although on a Sunday evening it is the perfect length! I too like the Grand Am for the racing. Not directly what I am looking for, but good stuff and the odd D40 story enlivens it.

[sportscarsRULE]

Although the ALMS is my favorite series, I voted LMS because ALMS doesn't have many enduros.

[sportscarsRULE]

Originally Posted by BuzzedHornet

Most fan friendly = GrandAM

???

[sportscarsRULE]

Originally Posted by Pete Fenelon

I think in '06 Audi, Porsche, Chevy and Panoz will have the whole series wrapped up tight. Not much actual racing.

Audi hasn't been confirmed to run ALMS full time. And as for Panoz: I don't think so. PTG, Flying Lizard, and Risi (new 430!) should make for a great class battle.

[Valker]

Originally Posted by Erki

Baltic GT is also good

Well... Baltic GT isn't/wasn't a real GT series. It's just renamed Super Saloon (Finland) and Vabaklass ("Free class" Estonia, (Latvia, Lithuania)).

I really hope Baltic GT Endurance will actually happen but I'm really sceptic. Most current Baltic GT cars can't last an hour race (and definitly not Horn GP 10003km!!). Two Carrera Cup cars, a Stratus super tourer and a BMW M3 (with M5 engine) won't make a proper series.

[FastJoel31]

ALMS!

Great tracks, great cars, more fan-friendly than any other series I've seen.

[Baritone2400]

Alms hands-down, theres alot of competetion in that series, great tracks and driver, how do u beat that?

[ger80]

i realy wonder why LMS has more % then FIA GT. I like LMES more than FIA GT, but i think FIA GT is more popular in europe

[nickyf1]

Super GT is good because the racing is close, it atracts top drivers and the cars look briliant!

[Flat12-Aircool]

Originally Posted by ger80

i realy wonder why LMS has more % then FIA GT. I like LMES more than FIA GT, but i think FIA GT is more popular in europe

For me its the 4 classes in one race what does it.

If for example they we're to start a new racing series off that was only for LMP's then it wouldn't be as entertaining. The thing what I enjoy the most is watching the skill of the LMP drivers as they weave in and out of the GT1 & 2's whilst still trying to maintain fast pace.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

For me its the 4 classes in one race what does it.

If for example they we're to start a new racing series off that was only for LMP's then it wouldn't be as entertaining. The thing what I enjoy the most is watching the skill of the LMP drivers as they weave in and out of the GT1 & 2's whilst still trying to maintain fast pace.

Agreed, the in car shots of McNish chasing down TK in the darkness at Sebring last year were just awesome. It was much more exciting as he had to negotiate the slower traffic than it would be with just one class.

As for Grand Am - to me it is good entertainment and good to watch (given the opportunity) but to me it is the same as watching Formula 3, or Indy lights or any of the more regional club championships where all the cars are the same and therefore the racing is close.

It is the diversity of the ACO based sportscars that just seems a more 'real' form of racing. There seems more opportunity to follow different development and design paths to acheive a competitive car. Yes it would be nice to see more competitive cars at most levels but it is important that they acheive it in different ways.

[Bentley03]

I had to go with the LMS. We've done the ALMS grid size thing to death on this forum, but until LMP1 and (in particular) GT1 become competitive at every round, it would be wrong to consider the ALMS to be the "best endurance racing series", so for me the LMS gets the nod.

I also have two fundamental problems with the ALMS. The sprint races which make up the majority of rounds in the series are simply too short to be termed 'endurance races'. And for the genuine endurance races in the series (Sebring/PLM) to finish in the dark just seems criminal from a spectator point of view.

[Seoigh]

There is simply not enough competition in ALMS. Aside from ever dominant Audi, who are to be commended for staying the course with the cutting edge favorite, who else really stand a chance?

While relatively low tech by comparison, the Grand Am DP formula pits world class drivers in similar chassis (with sound engineering and solid powertrains) against one another, with a variety of production-based GT cars thrown into the mix. It's relatively easy to build 300mph race cars (i.e. GTP's from the late 80's), but to what end? The Rolex 24 at Daytona was a thrill this year - with 5 laps separating the top 4 finishers...after 24 hours.

[The Badger]

Im with the LMS cuz of the variety and your never really sure who will win in each class .

Unless something went wrong with Audi , it was mostly doing all the winning . LMP2 was a farce as was GT1 with 3 solid cars of which only 2 ever won . GT2 was a scrap but again between 2 or 3 teams .

Gannassi was said to have mentioned a sum of 4 million US for a season ? That is a big amount for a low tech DP !!!

[The Badger]

[QUOTE=The Badger]Unless something went wrong with Audi , it was mostly doing all the winning . LMP2 was a farce as was GT1 with 3 solid cars of which only 2 ever won . GT2 was a scrap but again between 2 or 3 teams . QUOTE]

With referance to the Alms .

[Seoigh]

Gannassi was said to have mentioned a sum of 4 million US for a season ? That is a big amount for a low tech DP

In any professional series (save possibly karting), $4 million is a relative pittance. DP cars cost roughly $500k including power, then figure another $1.5 million or so for staff, spares, and support equipment...then $100k per car, per event for participation in the series...one can get to $4 million rather quickly.

[Garp]

$4 million US for a season? That's an awefull lot.

DP car $500k = say $200k a year
$1.5 million staff, spares, and support equipment Don't think so
Staff is about $200k a year
spares is about $200k a year
support equipment is about $50k a year
participation in the series, (tickets, tyres, fuel) is about $200k a year
Plus $150k a year, transport and other stuff.

That's about $ 1 million US for a season, and i bet i can arrange it for halve the money. including 3 proffesional drivers.

Wheres the $ 3 million,

$4 million is LMP1 budget, i bet Dyson would be very happy to spend $4 million a year.

[Seoigh]

Originally Posted by Garp

$4 million US for a season? That's an awefull lot.

DP car $500k = say $200k a year
$1.5 million staff, spares, and support equipment Don't think so
Staff is about $200k a year
spares is about $200k a year
support equipment is about $50k a year
participation in the series, (tickets, tyres, fuel) is about $200k a year
Plus $150k a year, transport and other stuff.

That's about $ 1 million US for a season, and i bet i can arrange it for halve the money. including 3 proffesional drivers.

Wheres the $ 3 million,

$4 million is LMP1 budget, i bet Dyson would be very happy to spend $4 million a year.

Not to belabor the point, but I think my data to be fairly near the mark when race development costs are factored in..and a WHOLE lot less than other professional series.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by Garp

$4 million US for a season? That's an awefull lot.

DP car $500k = say $200k a year
$1.5 million staff, spares, and support equipment Don't think so
Staff is about $200k a year
spares is about $200k a year
support equipment is about $50k a year
participation in the series, (tickets, tyres, fuel) is about $200k a year
Plus $150k a year, transport and other stuff.

That's about $ 1 million US for a season, and i bet i can arrange it for halve the money. including 3 proffesional drivers.

Wheres the $ 3 million,

$4 million is LMP1 budget, i bet Dyson would be very happy to spend $4 million a year.

Interesting, but completely wrong, IMHO. First, tell me how your staff, transportation, and other variable costs for a fourteen race GA season are significantly lower than they are for a ten race ALMS season? Second explain how fixed facility costs - shop, etc. - are significantly lower if you are running a DP? Are the rents lower? Mortgage rates? Is the shop equipment cheaper? Are the haulers cheaper? Do the truck drivers work for less?

Here is the real truth: The cost of DP racing has increased significantly just since its inception. The arrival of Ganassi and more and more professional drivers, along with continuing development of the DPs themselves have added to that cost. The days of running a half season without an engine re-build are over.

I can't quote my source, but I was told flat-out by a participant in both that racing the DP is fully as costly for a season as an LMP1. So far, the LMP1 has had as long a service life as the DP (look at the Lola B01/60), and it actually has a re-sale, so that there is really little difference in purchase cost once you annualize that investment in the grand scheme of things.

By the way, be careful whose testimony you base your betting on!

[TWK]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Unless something went wrong with Audi , it was mostly doing all the winning .

Actually, you've got that backwards. Unless something went wrong with the Lola B01/60s in 2005, it was more often than not the winner...to start with, you could add Portland, Lime Rock and Road Atlanta to Mid-Ohio and Mosport. Check the record - or watch the races. Audi won in 2005 on its almost erie - for any sports prototype in history - reliability. Audi earned those wins, but not because it was the fastest car on the track. It wasn't.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by TWK

Interesting, but completely wrong, IMHO. First, tell me how your staff, transportation, and other variable costs for a fourteen race GA season are significantly lower than they are for a ten race ALMS season? Second explain how fixed facility costs - shop, etc. - are significantly lower if you are running a DP? Are the rents lower? Mortgage rates? Is the shop equipment cheaper? Are the haulers cheaper? Do the truck drivers work for less?

Here is the real truth: The cost of DP racing has increased significantly just since its inception. The arrival of Ganassi and more and more professional drivers, along with continuing development of the DPs themselves have added to that cost. The days of running a half season without an engine re-build are over.

I can't quote my source, but I was told flat-out by a participant in both that racing the DP is fully as costly for a season as an LMP1. So far, the LMP1 has had as long a service life as the DP (look at the Lola B01/60), and it actually has a re-sale, so that there is really little difference in purchase cost once you annualize that investment in the grand scheme of things.

By the way, be careful whose testimony you base your betting on!

Your assessment is right on the bullseye, TWK....

Especially about the cost of competing for a full season being about the same for a DP as it is for an LMP1 program...I have had people who would know such things tell me this as well....

[Seoigh]

Originally Posted by TWK

Interesting, but completely wrong, IMHO. First, tell me how your staff, transportation, and other variable costs for a fourteen race GA season are significantly lower than they are for a ten race ALMS season? Second explain how fixed facility costs - shop, etc. - are significantly lower if you are running a DP? Are the rents lower? Mortgage rates? Is the shop equipment cheaper? Are the haulers cheaper? Do the truck drivers work for less?

Here is the real truth: The cost of DP racing has increased significantly just since its inception. The arrival of Ganassi and more and more professional drivers, along with continuing development of the DPs themselves have added to that cost. The days of running a half season without an engine re-build are over.

I can't quote my source, but I was told flat-out by a participant in both that racing the DP is fully as costly for a season as an LMP1. So far, the LMP1 has had as long a service life as the DP (look at the Lola B01/60), and it actually has a re-sale, so that there is really little difference in purchase cost once you annualize that investment in the grand scheme of things.

By the way, be careful whose testimony you base your betting on!

We can go 'round on this, and I won't get into the relative cost of N. American travel vs Intercontinental, but don't Ferrari acknowledge something like $200 millionUS per year to campaign 2 cars?

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by Seoigh

We can go 'round on this, and I won't get into the relative cost of N. American travel vs Intercontinental, but don't Ferrari acknowledge something like $200 millionUS per year to campaign 2 cars?

If you are referring to the Ferrari F-1 program, it is more like $400 million....

Beforre Jaguar got out of it, theirs was something like $250 million....

The only trip an ALMS team takes is to Le Mans....only a handful of teams get invited or get auto-bids from this side of the pond....

I've been told that a Trans-Atlantic trip like that can be done for about $300,000-$400,000, based upon info from a team that was considering a trip from Europe to do PLM and Laguna Seca last autumn

[Seoigh]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

If you are referring to the Ferrari F-1 program, it is more like $400 million....

Beforre Jaguar got out of it, theirs was something like $250 million....

The only trip an ALMS team takes is to Le Mans....only a handful of teams get invited or get auto-bids from this side of the pond....

I've been told that a Trans-Atlantic trip like that can be done for about $300,000-$400,000, based upon info from a team that was considering a trip from Europe to do PLM and Laguna Seca last autumn

Your Ferrari correction (an amount I was aware of) merely strengthens the point
Should we get further into this, I fear retribution by the mods, but I've been involved with both of the two major American sports car sanctioning bodies in different capacities, and had it reported by several folks who write checks that any season-long pro campaign is a multi-million dollar proposition. If you'd care to discuss further in person, I'll be in the contral tower at Sebring commencing Wednesday, 15th March. Friday, 17th you'll recognize me as the fat guy in the blue tartan kilt.
Cheers