Insurances

[David L]

About this time last year, there was some discussion about insurances and a few products were mentioned.. I was wondering if, one year on, there was any feedback to report..

My own feedback is a little mixed.. I used one of the specialist products last year (this is a public forum, so better be careful with identification).. Cover was tailored to suit my circumstances of travel and I got £5M third party liability.. Initial set up was easy, over the web, and they seemed friendly enough when talking with the office to discuss the fine print.. Premium in April 2005 was about £580 p/a.. Pricy I thought, but there you go.. Can't give any feedback on how claims were handled as I didn't have any.. The blot in the copybook came the other day when the renewal of £930 p/a landed on the doorstep.. "oh, there have been a lot of claims sir and we don't have a no claims discount/bonus system on the policy..".. They have agreed to look at this again, but I don't hold out much hope....

The premiums tend to suggest that something like 1 out of every 15 photogs insured by them suffer a total loss.. Either that, or they have had to fork out on a few liability claims.. No doubt I shall hear a fuller explaination next week..

Any other experiences..?

Dave

[jase]

Dave, Insurance is a funny animal, the premiums you pay are put into the company's claims pool. Your money will assist the company to pay out claims made by other people against their policies.

When it comes to the renewal, the company will look at their liabilities accross their whole Photographers program and adjust rates etc accordingly. That being said, the fact that you haven't made a claim againt your policy should load you premium in your favour - may not be much though.

Without naming your company at all, are they a major UK player? What may load the premiums too is who backs your insurer.

[Hubble]

I'm expecting my renewal shortly, so I'll be intersted to see how the price has changed this year. I paid around £265 for my policy, which included £5000 cover for specific items and £5M PLI. To be honest, I really only need the policy for the PLI, and then it's only required for test days, which are not covered under normal event insurance. I'm going to reduce the amount of cover this year anyway, as all my equipment is covered by my home contents insurance. I only had to pay extra for any single items valued at over £1500, which worked out at about £25 for my 400mm f2.8, and £15 for my 1DmkIIN for the year, which I thought wasn't bad.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Hubble

I'm going to reduce the amount of cover this year anyway, as all my equipment is covered by my home contents insurance.

For a declared business purpose as a motorsport photographer or just covered under your normal household policy?

[MikeHoyer]

I think you're covered by photoguard Phil?

I am aswell, it's also coming up for renewal at the end of the month. I insured my D100 and Sigma 135-400 back then, so it'll probably cost me more this year, with the D100, 300mm f4, 80-200mm f2.8 etc. I need it for the PLI though, and it'll come in handy for foreign use (going to Ricard at the end of the month, so I'm going to put the EU cover on). Think it'll be about £200.

[gungadan]

Originally Posted by David L

About this time last year, there was some discussion about insurances and a few products were mentioned.. I was wondering if, one year on, there was any feedback to report..

My own feedback is a little mixed.. I used one of the specialist products last year (this is a public forum, so better be careful with identification)..

<snip>

Dave

It's fair enough if you don't want to name them but I don't really understand why. It's not as if you're accusing them of anything other than (possibly) being a bit expensive.

[Hubble]

Originally Posted by Piglet

For a declared business purpose as a motorsport photographer or just covered under your normal household policy?

Just normal household insurance - like many others on this forum I am just an amateur, working for a number of sites and a couple of photographers.

Mike,
you are right , in that I am covered by Photoguard. As I recall as part of the conditions of the policy you will have 30 days worldwide cover anyway, you just need to notify them a couple of weeks prior to you going abroad. Might be worth you checking the specifics of your policy, I'm sure it's in there somewhere. How did your season pass application go? Got mine through this week, just suffering with a cold so I can't use it this weekend.

[MikeHoyer]

Yeah, got mine on Thursday, wore it to Snetterton . Not bothering this weekend, I thought a mate was racing at Brands, but he isn't, and my brother is down for the weekend, so I'm watching the GP and doing "family" stuff this weekend.

Got my Photoguard renewal letter today, going to read through it at work...

[David L]

Originally Posted by gungadan

It's fair enough if you don't want to name them but I don't really understand why. It's not as if you're accusing them of anything other than (possibly) being a bit expensive.

Possibly..?

My car costs about 1.25 pence per pound to insure.. My camera equipment, it seems, about 6p per pound.. I cannot accept that the risk is 5 times greater.. OK, car insurance is a competetive market.. I strongly suspect that photo insurance is not.. But is it 5 times more risky..?

There is not a lot of choice in the market and I strongly suspect that these people are cashing in on the market..

It's soemting akin to the stupid situation we got into with car insurance some years ago..

Jase, I understand the insurance market, basically, and how liability is shared across the premiums.. far enough with something like car insurance, where there are many many people covering the risk, but I don't accept that is appropriate for something more specialised.. After all, that's the job of an underwriter, to asses the risk.. This is clearly not happening as the company concerned do not make any assesment of claims history.. They should, in fact, do more to reward those with a good claims history..

I hauled loads of gear 50,000 miles (twice around the world) on 50 odd flights last year without incident or claim.. my reward, a 63% premium increase for the same risk..

Rubbish.. That's not acceptable..

No, the underwriters are having a laugh, I feel, and I suspect that another few hundred quid of my earnings will, ultimately, have to go to the leaches..

By the way.. Home insurance will not cover you properly, in my opinion, if it's revealed that your working for some sort of reward, especially if you are trackside.. You'd be pushing your luck with travel policies as well.. Try explaining why you, your 500mm and D2X got ran over by a fire truck racing around the track access road at Paul Ricard or someplace..

[gungadan]

Originally Posted by David L

Possibly..?

My car costs about 1.25 pence per pound to insure.. My camera equipment, it seems, about 6p per pound.. I cannot accept that the risk is 5 times greater.. OK, car insurance is a competetive market.. I strongly suspect that photo insurance is not.. But is it 5 times more risky..?

<snip>

Oh I agree. I only put 'possibly' in there because I wasn't sure whether you'd had other quotes to compare this year. Using the car insurance analogy, sometimes there is a readjustment (upwards naturally) across the whole industry so what can seem like a ridiculous renewal quote actually doesn't work out that bad. Obviously this does seem excessive so I'd be amazed if you weren't able to beat it.

[jase]

Originally Posted by David L

...I understand the insurance market, basically, and how liability is shared across the premiums.. far enough with something like car insurance, where there are many many people covering the risk, but I don't accept that is appropriate for something more specialised..

Unfortunately, you are approaching an insurance company offering a specialsed policy, it isn't a Special / One off Risk, the insurance company will therefore work on the same basis as car/home etc.

Originally Posted by David L

..that's the job of an underwriter, to asses the risk.. This is clearly not happening as the company concerned do not make any assesment of claims history.. They should, in fact, do more to reward those with a good claims history..

I hauled loads of gear 50,000 miles (twice around the world) on 50 odd flights last year without incident or claim.. my reward, a 63% premium increase for the same risk..

Rubbish.. That's not acceptable..

I totally agree, claim history Should be taken into account. Personal Liability rates do seem to be on the increase due to the litigeous society in which we now live. It is up to the Underwriter to look at the risk, however, he may be presented with a pool account to asses and sets his rates accordingly. All I can say is a 63% hike is something which you should query and demand an explanation for.

Originally Posted by David L

..By the way.. Home insurance will not cover you properly, in my opinion, if it's revealed that your working for some sort of reward, especially if you are trackside.. You'd be pushing your luck with travel policies as well.. Try explaining why you, your 500mm and D2X got ran over by a fire truck racing around the track access road at Paul Ricard or someplace..

Hubble, Home Insurance will not cover you At All while you are using your equipment for reward. Is your equipment listed on your home policy? I doubt it. If you suffer a Total Loss what are you going to tell your insurer? It fell off the bed? You'll find yourself not covered. And the 'it'll never happen to me' approach will only last so long.

Also David raises another point - travel insurance, you'll find being a photographer trackside is deemed a 'hazardous pursuit' and unless specifically covered on your policy as Trackside Photographer, you Will Not be covered, even if you tell them what you are going to be doing and they say it isn't covered and you go ahead and travel on the policy and have an incident, you may find out they'll refuse any coverage.

[Hubble]

Originally Posted by jase

Hubble, Home Insurance will not cover you At All while you are using your equipment for reward. Is your equipment listed on your home policy? I doubt it. If you suffer a Total Loss what are you going to tell your insurer? It fell off the bed? You'll find yourself not covered. And the 'it'll never happen to me' approach will only last so long.

Also David raises another point - travel insurance, you'll find being a photographer trackside is deemed a 'hazardous pursuit' and unless specifically covered on your policy as Trackside Photographer, you Will Not be covered, even if you tell them what you are going to be doing and they say it isn't covered and you go ahead and travel on the policy and have an incident, you may find out they'll refuse any coverage.

Jase, Refer to my earlier post - I am an amateur covering events for a couple of websites and a couple of other photographers. I am required by my house insurance to list only items above £1500 in value, which I have, including serial numbers. They are aware of the circumstances in which I use the equipment, and are happy to accept the risk based on the information I have given them. What difference would it make if I dropped my 400mm f2.8 while photographing a car at a circuit or photographing ducks at a nearby pond? None, that's the answer, because it is not the location or type of photography that caused the damage, but me dropping it. I pay extrra on my premium for them to take this risk. If it's stolen from my car boot at a circuit, is it any different from being stolen from my car boot while I am shopping on my way home? Provided it is properly secured, and stored out of view, no. As regards overseas travel, I am required to notify them of periods I will be abroad with the equipment, which I do.

[Piglet]

Hubble, if you sign on as media then I'd imagine that the existence of that sign on (that says you are "media") and the fact that you cover races for websites/publications would give your insurer the ability to claim that this is not "normal" use regardless of whether you are being paid or not.

If they've told you something different having been given the correct facts I would want to see that confirmation in writing. I spent 8 years doing motor and general insurance and believe me if they can see a way out they'll take it.

[jase]

That's fine, but your earlier post gave the impression you hadn't listed your equipment or told them that you use them trackside.

The location of an incident is important when making any claim on any policy, so droping it at a pond is significantly different from being trackside, Is dropping it at the pond because you were bumped into by someone? Was the lense dropped by you trackside as you scrambled out of the way to avoid being speared beind the tyres by an errant car? Location and cause of the drop are important and as an assessor I would look at and consider all variables when deciding if a loss is covered by the policy.

As for being abroad, do you declare on your travel insurance that you are working as a photographer in foreign countries? Or do you have seperate liability insurance?

Insurance companies rely on people being daft and lazy, you obviously aren't in that category, unfortunately not everyone bothers to declare individual items or events on their policies.

[Hubble]

Originally Posted by jase

As for being abroad, do you declare on your travel insurance that you are working as a photographer in foreign countries? Or do you have seperate liability insurance?

I have seperate PLI, which is generally a requirement only for test days, as these are not covered under usual event insurance. Photoguard includes 30 days EU andworldwide cover, they just need notifying when you are going away. Not generally an issue for me, although I will be going to Le Mans and to Pau this year.

Where relevant I always seek written confirmation that they understand the nature of what I am doing, and the risks entailed. Wherever I go with my kit, I take great care of it - I certainly wouldn't like to have to replace the 400mm, I just simply could not afford it right now