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Old 15 Jun 2021, 22:38 (Ref:4056609)   #181
canaglia
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Originally Posted by Adam43 View Post
What is your actual conclusion here?

Do you accept that both the Glickenhaus and the Toyota have fuel tanks big enough to be able to utilise all the energy they are allowed?

If so, no fuel tank is not the key here as both have the right size!

The actual conclusion should be that the Glickenhaus can go further on their respective allowed energy!

Different cars and drivers at different times in the race will have different stint lengths!

And what you present doesn't even show that Glickenhaus can do this, as their race was very disrupted.
I still don't understand where did I write that toyota and 007 have small or unfit fuel tanks? or how do you deduce I wrote or was meaning that?
I actually don't minimally care if toyota has 89, 90, 92L etc...
I'm just pointing out how silly and useless is the MJ/stint system since it doesn't balance at all stint lengths of different cars and as 007 shows, a car equipped with a larger fuel tank has advantages.
I don't think your conclusion is true and I explained why, during the long final stint, but short FCY period, 007 was pushing all the time (proof is alkamel laptimes list), and a <0.5% difference between toyota and 007 energy allocation, simply can't justify that difference of stint lenght.


"And what you present doesn't even show that Glickenhaus can do this"
it's not what I present, it's what actually happened.

Anyway since thanks to your revelation I finally reached what was looking for, I conclude my contribution about this discussion with this meme:
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Old 15 Jun 2021, 23:04 (Ref:4056613)   #182
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Originally Posted by canaglia View Post
I still don't understand where did I write that toyota and 007 have small or unfit fuel tanks? or how do you deduce I wrote or was meaning that?
Because you kept saying it was the fuel tank size that made the difference. And you seemed to suggest another competitor could just turn up with a bigger tank and have longer stints!

Sorry I misunderstood that!

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I'm just pointing out how silly and useless is the MJ/stint system since it doesn't balance at all stint lengths of different cars and as 007 shows, a car equipped with a larger fuel tank has advantages.
I’m making no point about whether they got the energy allocation right. Frankly I’d be surprised if they got it spot on for these different cars.

You said it is the fuel tank size that has the advantage. Which is why you confuse me. It isn’t the tank size! It is that the 007’s energy allocation means (maybe) that it can go longer. It just happens (unsurprisingly as it isn’t a hybrid) that it needs more fuel to achieve that the energy.

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I don't think your conclusion is true and I explained why, during the long final stint, but short FCY period, 007 was pushing all the time (proof is alkamel laptimes list),
See attached picture, on average it was a lot slower. But there was a FCY where it could dramatically use less energy during this period.

As with the Toyota it had to make a difference. Have a bit of time using a lot less energy and then it gives you license to nail it.

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"And what you present doesn't even show that Glickenhaus can do this"
it's not what I present, it's what actually happened.
*sigh*
There is nothing in what happened that lets us know yet. We don’t have an undisrupted stint from the 007 that was longer than the Toyota. We have a stint from the Toyota were it did 39 laps averaging 1:32.1 and a 39 from Glickenhaus averaging 1:34.4 (and a FCY effected stint 40 lap at 1:38.4)

And what happens to the number of laps if the Glickenhaus did 1:32.1 on average, or the Toyota 1:34.4 on average?

But as I said it wouldn’t surprise me if one car can go a lap longer in a stint. Not because of the fuel tank, but because the energy allowance hasn’t been BoPed well enough.

Although credit where credit is due, the ACO, have done a decent job on lap times.

Last edited by Adam43; 15 Jun 2021 at 23:29.
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Old 15 Jun 2021, 23:34 (Ref:4056617)   #183
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Toyota is heavier than the Glick. To run at the same pace it should require more energy, no? So it makes sense that it would produce a shorter stint, right?
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Old 15 Jun 2021, 23:58 (Ref:4056620)   #184
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Could well be. The cars are so different. Hybrid, drivetrain, etc...

Could also be at some circuits it is enough to grab an extra lap and others it just doesn't fall that way - no point in being able to do a 11.9 lap stint at Le Mans

We need more examples to know though.

We only have two stints that might be representative for the 007. They were 38 and 39 laps, albeit at a pace 2s slower than the #8's 39 lap stint.

Only then will we know if the energy sums from the ACO are right. They might be way off for the Alpine, but that has a different limit.
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Old 16 Jun 2021, 08:21 (Ref:4056641)   #185
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Originally Posted by cavalo_mORTO View Post
Toyota is heavier than the Glick. To run at the same pace it should require more energy, no? So it makes sense that it would produce a shorter stint, right?

nope, a heavier car may have worse consumes but is the concept of allocated energy which is easily misunderstandable, the MJ/stint energy is an indirect measurement of the torque released by ICE/ERS during an interval of time (the stint length). Independently by the mass of the car, a driver needs however to push hard to be competitive, so the torque is however released anyhow, the extra weight ballast makes just the car slower likely consuming more.
The matter is simple: stating that none ever received penalties, so none ever exceeded the MJ/stint limit so far; once noted that this max energy allocated is an excess value that, even pushing at their best, alpine can't reach due the smaller fuel tank size, toyota can't reach because 90L give to the car a 58min stint and 007 can stay on track a bit longer because has more fuel due a larger fuel tank, what the conclusion?
That the real empiric "balancing" factor of stint length isn't the MJ/stint value but the fuel tank size.
Case closed.
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Old 16 Jun 2021, 08:58 (Ref:4056648)   #186
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Case closed.
I somehow doubt that.....
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Old 16 Jun 2021, 09:41 (Ref:4056650)   #187
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Originally Posted by canaglia View Post
That the real empiric "balancing" factor of stint length isn't the MJ/stint value but the fuel tank size.
Case closed.
Could Toyota fit a bigger tank and have a longer stint?
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Old 16 Jun 2021, 12:38 (Ref:4056676)   #188
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toyota can't reach because 90L give to the car a 58min stint and 007 can stay on track a bit longer because has more fuel due a larger fuel tank, what the conclusion?
That the real empiric "balancing" factor of stint length isn't the MJ/stint value but the fuel tank size.
I'd like to re-open the case if I may, and query the conclusion reached?

The fitting of a larger tank will only increase your stint length up to the point that your energy/stint quota has been reached surely?

Taking each car in isolation - if the Toyota has a 90L tank and has not used all of the 962MJ when the tank is empty, then it must be close to that. Let's be generous and say that the Toyota has only deployed 900MJ - then they are getting 10MJ/L. So this gives a theoretical tank limit of 96.2L. Fitting a 120L tank will not give them any extra stint length, because the 962MJ would have been deployed once 96.2L of fuel are used - the additional 23.8L are just ballast.

Now looking at the Glick - if you work on the assumption that their longer stint was achievable because of a larger tank, then let's hypothetically assume it is 100L. Again, being generous, let's assume they had only deployed 900MJ before needing to refuel, this amounts to 9MJ/L. Fitting a 108L tank would give them enough fuel to deploy 972MJ - anything over this in tank size is again ballast.

The evidence suggests that you ideally want a tank that gives you enough fuel to deploy your MJ/stint figure. But, once this tank size is fitted, anything larger gives no benefit. So in the case of Alpine, their stint length is tank limited - but Toyota and Glick were limited due to MJ/stint figure, not tank size.
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Old 18 Jun 2021, 07:36 (Ref:4056937)   #189
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
I'd like to re-open the case if I may, and query the conclusion reached?

The fitting of a larger tank will only increase your stint length up to the point that your energy/stint quota has been reached surely?

Taking each car in isolation - if the Toyota has a 90L tank and has not used all of the 962MJ when the tank is empty, then it must be close to that. Let's be generous and say that the Toyota has only deployed 900MJ - then they are getting 10MJ/L. So this gives a theoretical tank limit of 96.2L. Fitting a 120L tank will not give them any extra stint length, because the 962MJ would have been deployed once 96.2L of fuel are used - the additional 23.8L are just ballast.

Now looking at the Glick - if you work on the assumption that their longer stint was achievable because of a larger tank, then let's hypothetically assume it is 100L. Again, being generous, let's assume they had only deployed 900MJ before needing to refuel, this amounts to 9MJ/L. Fitting a 108L tank would give them enough fuel to deploy 972MJ - anything over this in tank size is again ballast.

The evidence suggests that you ideally want a tank that gives you enough fuel to deploy your MJ/stint figure. But, once this tank size is fitted, anything larger gives no benefit. So in the case of Alpine, their stint length is tank limited - but Toyota and Glick were limited due to MJ/stint figure, not tank size.
I do not understand why hould Toyota fit a 120 l tank. They should fit a 97 l tank - to be sure they do not run out of fuel - and so they can use the allowed energy per stint. At LM it hould have a big effect.
Anyway,the car is now homologated,they can not change it I assume.

BTW how do we know what tank size have the Toyotas?
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