|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
6 Mar 2023, 13:11 (Ref:4146034) | #651 | |||
Race Official
20KPINAL
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 23,189
|
Quote:
I think the back in black livery hides the 'wrongness', it was more obvious when the car was silver. |
|||
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
6 Mar 2023, 14:00 (Ref:4146052) | #652 | ||
Team Crouton
20KPINAL
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 39,550
|
Personally I disagree - I think it looks positively hideous in black.....
|
||
__________________
96 days... |
6 Mar 2023, 15:18 (Ref:4146071) | #653 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,737
|
admittedly and even with the better picture quality/cleaner TV images, it was often difficult to distinguish some of the cars apart . more so at the start but it was hard to tell the AMs apart from the Mercs with even the commentators making a few errors as a result it seemed.
would like to see the B-spec car (which i think will come out sooner rather than later) revert to the silver livery. |
||
__________________
Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place |
6 Mar 2023, 17:09 (Ref:4146098) | #654 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,842
|
I have always felt that a big part of Mercedes F1 strength has been their leadership. But it surprised me that given their challenges last year that they doubled down on the sidepod solution. I agree everyone should not be sheep and just consolidate on (copy) a single aero solution. That you are either "leading" or "following". So there is value in trying to bring your own solution that you think is better. But it still is surprising that they really felt it was the right thing for 2023 given how bad 2022 was for them. I also wonder if given that they have probably had to shrink a bit (number of people) that they lost some bit of the "magic" somewhere. Not just in pure people and budget, but something else that is making it hard for them to efficiently operate. Maybe... they just have a hard time operating efficiently as well. If you are used to having a big budget, it can be hard to operate in a lean way?
So after (or during) testing, we had Mercedes saying to expect a revised solution. But if I remember correctly it was phrased more as "evolution" vs. "revolution". To me that was more like they were going to tweak it, but overall still keep that basic solution. But now I think Toto is maybe having stronger words that they got it wrong. But it's not just about a new outer aero skin. If they need to more to more classic sidepod solution, they have to move a lot of stuff under the skin. Which I would assume is going to be costly. I just tend to think 2023 is going to be a rough season for Mercedes. Are they now in a technology "rebuilding" phase that might take multiple seasons given the cost caps? Previously they might have just gone and dumped a truck load of money at the problem. But they can't do that anymore. After the first race, there are mixed messages in the media. Now these might be crafted to just get views, but you have Russell sounding quite downbeat... Title "Russell: Red Bull will win every single race in 2023 F1 season" https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/r...ason/10440271/ And Lewis being maybe more balanced... Title "Hamilton: I need to be a "positive light" for Mercedes after Bahrain F1" https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/h...edes/10440414/ Is it just the media spinning things or is there real doom and gloom in the team? Richard |
|
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
6 Mar 2023, 19:02 (Ref:4146128) | #655 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,857
|
Quote:
As for Mercedes i wouldn't be surprised if they have a rough design of a "B" spec car/2024 design already floating around which goes down a different aero philosophy. Could get introduced towards the final third of the season so they can get a jump start on 2024. Of course, that would mean abandoning the "no pod" design and writing off 2023 if the car cannot be improved quickly in the first few races. |
|||
|
6 Mar 2023, 19:32 (Ref:4146134) | #656 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,367
|
Quote:
Had the same thought - of course MB actually ran a more conventional car in the first test last year so they'd have at least worked out the packaging under the pods and might even have parts that fit under any current sidepod design. |
|||
__________________
“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue |
7 Mar 2023, 05:09 (Ref:4146168) | #657 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,937
|
Quote:
BAR were an upper midfield team for quite some time after all, it's nothing unusual. Being the 4th fastest car is quite good really! This whole "we are Mercedes, we race to win" hubris is silly. So what if the Imola package (with the current half-pod direction) does not bring predicted numbers ahead of the Bahrain Red Bull, and even only halving the gap to the Bahrain-spec Red Bull? The W13 was quite solid and took a pole and a win after all. No use to panic. F1 is about continual improvement and developments, not magic bullets after all! Look at what happened when the team tried to revolutionise their car in 2007, instead of continuing on the solid upper midfield direction of the team's 2006 car -- it was a disaster! Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 7 Mar 2023 at 05:14. |
||
|
7 Mar 2023, 09:14 (Ref:4146176) | #658 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 809
|
I might well be wrong,but the slide down the grid coincides with the spending cap being applied.Now that they have a limit to what can be spent,it has become more important than ever to target that spending wisely and not simply throw vast amounts of money at solving a problem by trying lots of solutions until one of them works.It will have to cause a different way of approaching things and the change of outlook may not happen overnight.By comparison,a team with a history of achieving quit a lot with limited resources may thrive in such an era,as shown by the cars based at Silverstone.Obviously the present performance will not change too much until a solution has been identified and the parts produced to eliminate the cause of the unaccustomed level of results.While all this is going on the opposition won't exactly be sitting on their hands.
|
|
|
7 Mar 2023, 16:50 (Ref:4146228) | #659 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,446
|
Zero side pod Mercedes, size zero McLarens it would seem to be not the way to go!
|
||
|
7 Mar 2023, 18:04 (Ref:4146233) | #660 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,842
|
Quote:
In short... don't focus on one thing. Look to a holistic solution. Richard |
||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
7 Mar 2023, 23:05 (Ref:4146252) | #661 | ||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,716
|
When was the last time an entrant radically changed their design durimg a season?
I was thinking Williams binning the Walrus nose in '04? |
||
|
8 Mar 2023, 00:21 (Ref:4146255) | #662 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,374
|
I can’t Mercedes doing that. Williams car in 04 was so bad in the beginning they needed a change to make it a winner again
|
|
__________________
He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
8 Mar 2023, 03:14 (Ref:4146259) | #663 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 6,069
|
Quote:
It was the engine packaging of the 19 caused regular failures and a disastrous start to the season, with several zero point weekends.....the 19B was very soon put in motion and introduced mid season with different sidepods and revised aero. That was an improvement out of the box and became a race winner Oh hang on that was 2004 as well, was thinking it was 2005. |
|||
|
8 Mar 2023, 16:07 (Ref:4146325) | #664 | |||
Race Official
20KPINAL
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 23,189
|
Quote:
Designing a race car is a compromise. More downforce = more drag. It's getting the balance right. |
|||
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
8 Mar 2023, 18:36 (Ref:4146349) | #665 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,737
|
Quote:
while i dont believe that updated car officially received a B-Spec designation but surely it qualifies as a major, if not radical, mid season change in philosophy? interesting though that they were able to run two separate design teams in 2022 and under the cap...leads me to think Merc could be doing the same thing? i guess we will see how quickly Merc can come out with a solution and whether or not that solution represents a move away from the side zero side pods. if they have a b-spec by Imola (is that the first European race this season?) then they were probably running some sort of hedge development program right? also curious if they could, or would, revert to an older configuration a la the MP4-17D? |
|||
__________________
Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place |
8 Mar 2023, 18:52 (Ref:4146350) | #666 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,374
|
It has taken time for AM to be competitive, but it’s still early days yet
|
|
__________________
He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
8 Mar 2023, 19:55 (Ref:4146360) | #667 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,549
|
Quote:
Toto Wolff, in an interview some days, I think it was, prior to the start of testing, did say that they already had a version of the current car but with fuller or full sidepods. He said that they were ready to change to the updated version at a later point in the season if required, but didn't, as far as I can remember, state when that change might take place. He also intimated that there was no significant difference between the two, which I took to mean during wind tunnel tests and or CAD testing. |
|||
|
8 Mar 2023, 20:26 (Ref:4146363) | #668 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,374
|
I think it’s wise to keep an update handy just in case. Clearly the current car isn’t good enough, so they might have to update. I expect them to be challenging for wins before too long
They will get around any restrictions no doubt |
|
__________________
He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
8 Mar 2023, 20:51 (Ref:4146371) | #669 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,082
|
I wouldn't put money on Mercedes regaining the dominance they had previously.
F1 used to flip flop between a variety of teams until the early 80s, when Williams, McLaren and Brabham scrapped for the WDC. Then McLaren had an era of dominance (7 in 8 years), the 90s were shared between McLaren and Williams (4 each) with Benetton taking two, then Ferrari had 5 in a row and then a 6th, punctuated by 2 for Benetton. Then 4 years from RBR, 7 consecutive titles for Merc (and Hamilton with the extra Rosberg year), and now 2 consecutive RBR titles. If Stroll Senior has played his cards right, we could see a three or four way scrap for the next few years with no one team dominating overall. Personally, I really like the idea of that. Whilst I didn't hate on Ferrari and Schumacher at their height like some did, I relished the change when they started to come undone. I howled with delight when Brawn stuck it to everyone in 2009, and I look forward to there being a new championship challenger in AM - Alonso, Stroll or otherwise. And there's the WCC to look at, but I'll leave that there! |
|
|
9 Mar 2023, 14:08 (Ref:4146457) | #670 | |||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,716
|
Quote:
|
|||
__________________
"Double Kidney Guv'nah?" "No thanks George they're still wavin a white flag!" |
9 Mar 2023, 14:21 (Ref:4146461) | #671 | |||
Racer
Join Date: Sep 2022
Posts: 105
|
Quote:
|
|||
|
9 Mar 2023, 17:44 (Ref:4146497) | #672 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,275
|
||
|
9 Mar 2023, 17:58 (Ref:4146498) | #673 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,737
|
agreed!
Merc made their choices, chose to ignore their results last year, and this year doubled down on their own hubris... no bail out imo! and unless they can get another solution working (earlier the better) and spend the remaining season developing in order to minimize the gap as much as possible before winter, then next year might be a less than stellar effort as well. so question, If you are Hamilton looking for another title before you retire, do you sign a new deal with Merc? it may be a bit of a default situation because at this point, would he even have a better option for next year? could try and poach Sainz' seat i suppose or maybe Alonso's (if the AM continues to develop) but otherwise not a lot of title winning options out there. flip side...if you are Merc and know next year could also be a lean year, is it worth it to sign up the most (im assuming he is anyways because they dont actually tell us how much drivers sign up for) expensive driver on the grid? |
||
__________________
Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place |
9 Mar 2023, 19:57 (Ref:4146514) | #674 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,367
|
Quote:
Yep - nailed it & for no reason other than 1 team isn't quite where it would like to be. |
|||
__________________
“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue |
9 Mar 2023, 20:29 (Ref:4146517) | #675 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,842
|
||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
would Toyota dominate V8's like they have NASCAR? | Pro Racer | Australasian Touring Cars. | 12 | 8 Jul 2008 02:02 |
Which chassis/engine combo will dominate in 2002. | nem | ChampCar World Series | 4 | 2 Jan 2002 06:08 |
carl breeze to dominate 2002 f3! | old skool | National & International Single Seaters | 38 | 6 Dec 2001 14:59 |
Gronholm And Makinen Dominate 2002 | Old Hairpin | Rallying & Rallycross | 4 | 2 Dec 2001 16:15 |
who's gonna dominate in 2003 ? | srinimax | Formula One | 17 | 31 Oct 2001 11:16 |