[Driver] Ricciardo

[mac]

Originally Posted by Mr V

My point remains though, if he wants to get on in F1 he needs to be beating a driver like Karthikeyan comfortably, and doing enough in case something goes wrong. Had he finished behind Liuzzi, then ok - acceptable, but not Narain.

I was watching this contest quite closely... Ricciardo was miles ahead for the first part of the race... Stayed ahead of a number of drivers for quite some time...

Then, around the time of his stop, he seemed to lose over a minute - he seemed to go from being about 30s ahead of Narain, to being 50s behind in the space of a lap.

And then, despite having a poor car for the seconf half of the race, was catching Narain at about 1.5 to 2 seconds a lap - and D'Ambrosio at one stage for that matter, at about half a second per lap...

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Watching him in FR3.5 there's no question there's potential but as usual Red Bull are doing their best to botch it. This has been a pointless halfway exercise all year. Not winning the World Series title last year was a small failure and I think he needed to focus on sealing the deal this year for his mental development more than anything else. The F1 Friday drives should have been extra candy, not the main focus of the season. With the title wrapped up, he could then race the final four GP's as a just reward. Seven less GP's in a HRT won't do much difference in a few years time.

Red Bull seems to underestimate the effect of actually getting those titles in your junior career. They've done the same mistake with Alguesuari, and will probably do the same with Vergne. I think they'll be lesser drivers for it.

(This does not apply to Buemi, who was probably never going to win a GP2 title)

[mac]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

Watching him in FR3.5 there's no question there's potential but as usual Red Bull are doing their best to botch it. This has been a pointless halfway exercise all year. Not winning the World Series title last year was a small failure and I think he needed to focus on sealing the deal this year for his mental development more than anything else. The F1 Friday drives should have been extra candy, not the main focus of the season. With the title wrapped up, he could then race the final four GP's as a just reward. Seven less GP's in a HRT won't do much difference in a few years time.

Red Bull seems to underestimate the effect of actually getting those titles in your junior career. They've done the same mistake with Alguesuari, and will probably do the same with Vergne. I think they'll be lesser drivers for it.

(This does not apply to Buemi, who was probably never going to win a GP2 title)

Agreed... Ricciardo was actually driving a very strong race in India - until he lost mountains of time for God knows whatever issue in the middle of the race... Which drops him behind his team mate, which makes him look bad in the eyes of many "because that's the only measuring stick"...

Let's hope those that matter pay closer attention to his races than those that don't matter on here...

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by mac

Agreed... Ricciardo was actually driving a very strong race in India - until he lost mountains of time for God knows whatever issue in the middle of the race... Which drops him behind his team mate, which makes him look bad in the eyes of many "because that's the only measuring stick"...

Let's hope those that matter pay closer attention to his races than those that don't matter on here...

Oh, it's got nothing to do with perception. It has everything to do with preparing a driver to fight for titles and giving them confidence and experience, and this is not a great way to do it.

[mac]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

Oh, it's got nothing to do with perception. It has everything to do with preparing a driver to fight for titles and giving them confidence and experience, and this is not a great way to do it.

I think it's a little of both, personally...

Ricciardo's Red Bull contract is up at the end of this season... If they decide to cut back their young driver program, what does the 2011 entry on Dan's CV look like on the driver market?

A bunch of races pootling around at the back in an HRT - and finished behind Karthikeyan at the Indian GP (and don't bother with the excuses!),

OR:

FR3.5 champion (not saying he would definitely won it - just saying he would have had a better shot) and a season of Friday practice...

[chunterer]

Good debate guys!

Could there also have been an element of Indian PR here?

Would it have been better financially for Narain to do well at his home race with next years budget in mind?

[Carsandmotorracing]

Guys, Daniel doesn't decide what series he races in...

[Born Racer]

Daniel Ricciardo (18th)
“The first laps weren’t great but then I managed to pass a few people. Some laps later I got past Narain and set a good rhythm; I was happy with the first stint as everything was going well, the balance was good and the tyres were performing well. In the second stint I felt a strange feeling in the front of the car after a couple of laps, the car was moving quite a bit from left to right, I still don’t know the reason for this but it might have been a puncture. It’s a shame because as a cause we had to do an extra pit stop and lost quite a bit of time with that. In the third stint, once we found our pace we were quite competitive. It ruined the rhythm of our race but hopefully we can avoid it from happening next time".

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlin.../10/12726.html

[bella]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

Red Bull seems to underestimate the effect of actually getting those titles in your junior career. They've done the same mistake with Alguesuari, and will probably do the same with Vergne. I think they'll be lesser drivers for it.

(This does not apply to Buemi, who was probably never going to win a GP2 title)

alguersuari wasn't going to win the fr3.5 title either, iirc. given an extra year, who knows, but in my opinion they did the right thing with him.

i think it was clear that ricciardo, for whatever reason, wasn't going to be in the title hunt in fr3.5. even if his performance at monaco was superb, and he drove a great race at monza pressuring vergne. i don't believe it'd have made any difference if he'd have been there to race at motorland and start the season properly.

i think putting ricciardo in a dodgy f1 car was right, considering the fact he wobbled and lost the fr3.5 title (i don't believe aleshin won it, ricciardo lost it). what better way to see if that was an unfortunate set of circumstances than to put him in a difficult situation and see how he handles it? plus it gains him experience in a f1 situation, which is entirely different to anything else regardless of how you think of it.

they'd be wise to do the same with vergne. at the moment they don't have quite the same comparison, and his reaction to the pressure at barcelona was very hamilton-esque.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by bella

hamilton-esque.

Which is not currently the same as Senna-esque.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by bella

alguersuari wasn't going to win the fr3.5 title either, iirc. given an extra year, who knows, but in my opinion they did the right thing with him.

i think it was clear that ricciardo, for whatever reason, wasn't going to be in the title hunt in fr3.5. even if his performance at monaco was superb, and he drove a great race at monza pressuring vergne. i don't believe it'd have made any difference if he'd have been there to race at motorland and start the season properly.

i think putting ricciardo in a dodgy f1 car was right, considering the fact he wobbled and lost the fr3.5 title (i don't believe aleshin won it, ricciardo lost it). what better way to see if that was an unfortunate set of circumstances than to put him in a difficult situation and see how he handles it? plus it gains him experience in a f1 situation, which is entirely different to anything else regardless of how you think of it.

they'd be wise to do the same with vergne. at the moment they don't have quite the same comparison, and his reaction to the pressure at barcelona was very hamilton-esque.

And I stand by my point that these guys needed to be given the time to win their titles and get experience. You throw Grosjean into F1 now and he'd be a completely different driver.

[bella]

i'm going to end up contradicting myself here to try and convince you that you're not entirely correct.

grosjean returns to f1 as a different driver *because* of his rubbish f1 experience. winning trophies doesn't make any difference (well ok, it doesn't make much difference), the bit that has improved him and raised his game is the crap he took at renault, and the rebuilding process after that. just in the same way it would do for a young driver who had ended up in gp2 a little prematurely and taken a similar emotional kicking.

it's important for a driver to be able to cope with pressure, but a really talented driver who doesn't win a title is no worse than a marginally less talented driver who does.

[chunterer]

Grosjean's experience is a bit like Piero Martini who had a torrid time when he came into F1 in 1985 with Minardi as the great Italian hope. He had to regroup in F3000, quite succesfully, and reminded people that he was a decent pedaller.

He then returned to F1 and whilst he never got a drive worth a sniff, he gained a rep as a decent qualifier and managed a fairly lengthy career.

[bella]

likewise timo glock, after his debut with jordan.

not that ricciardo will need to regroup or anything, but bringing someone like him into f1 earlier than you'd think really isn't a big deal, especially if his season isn't going to pan out perfectly and there's an opportunity to assess his abilities. from a drivers point of view, a f1 car is still a f1 car isn't it? and driving for different teams, seeing different approaches and understanding different cars (as he's been able to do) is hardly a negative concept.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by bella

likewise timo glock, after his debut with jordan.

not that ricciardo will need to regroup or anything, but bringing someone like him into f1 earlier than you'd think really isn't a big deal, especially if his season isn't going to pan out perfectly and there's an opportunity to assess his abilities. from a drivers point of view, a f1 car is still a f1 car isn't it? and driving for different teams, seeing different approaches and understanding different cars (as he's been able to do) is hardly a negative concept.

When you come to F1 you really need to make a positive mark. Webber, Alonso both made a mark when they came to F1, even in the Minardi's of their day. (Earlier Minardi seasons had resulted in 4ths and a front row start in 1990). Schumacher's debut at Spa in EJ's Jordan was a surprise to everyone and he was rewarded quickly.

Glock was good in Toyota's but the Virgin as it is now is a waste of his talent. Without the opportunity to shine or produce something really good then you actually dull your reputation and a few good performances get mixed up with the dozens of dull ones. The road to success becomes a lot harder.
Hulkenburg got a pole in Brazil last year but that still has a power of good in his favour. It may have been a bit freakish but people still remember it, so if he backs it up with a series of good results next year people will simply regard it as a sign of the talent that 'was always there....'

Kimi did well in his first year at Sauber and the result was a McLaren call up.

Fisichella got a pole at Spa for Force India but if Di Resta had put the car on the front row at the same venue this year it would have been a revelation. As it is he has done himself a lot of good with a series of good drives. He has made a mark of sorts so next year will be interesting.

Someone like Ricciardo needs to have a few standout performances, but thats hard in an HRT. If he did something remarkable in Brazil or Abu Dhabi then he could have abn advantage but where to next year?

At the moment we have more talent than good rides at a time when a good car is more critical than ever.

[Born Racer]

I reckoned Grosjean was reasonably decent in the circumstances alongside Alonso, so I'm one of those who think he'd probably acquit himself well.

[SilverSpeed]

Originally Posted by mac

I think it's a little of both, personally...

Ricciardo's Red Bull contract is up at the end of this season... If they decide to cut back their young driver program, what does the 2011 entry on Dan's CV look like on the driver market?

A bunch of races pootling around at the back in an HRT - and finished behind Karthikeyan at the Indian GP (and don't bother with the excuses!),

OR:

FR3.5 champion (not saying he would definitely won it - just saying he would have had a better shot) and a season of Friday practice...

He had a bloody mechanical drama and an extra (long) pitstop. Jeez give the guy a break.

What are people expecting of him....he is in a bloody HRT. Beating a Virgin is a standout performance. And let's not forget he often outpaced Algersuari or Buemi in the Friday sessions at the start of the season. If he doesn't get a fair go at Toro Rosso next year it's a joke.

Algersuari will probaley replace Webber for 2013. Put Ricciardo in for 2012 and Vergne can do the Friday sessions for a year with Toros Rosso and move up to a Toro Rosso race seat in 2013. Simple. It's fair and Vergne and Ricciardo both get fair chances

[mac]

Originally Posted by SilverSpeed

He had a bloody mechanical drama and an extra (long) pitstop. Jeez give the guy a break.

Yes, I'm aware more than most... Check my previous posts.

I was (perhaps lazily) invoking the thoughts of team managers looking over Dan's CV in the event that Red Bull don't pick up their option on him at the end of the year... To make the point that I'm not convinced that HRT was the right call for Dan personally.

[OZ_HCR32]

So will Vergne get the gig at STR next year? I suspect if Vergne does a good job then Dan could be out in the cold. Or possibly we see a repeat of past years where the Klein/Luizzi shared gig gets the nod until they decide on who will partner Jaime

[rich07]

I think it would be silly to throw Vergne into a Toro Rosso seat with him having no experience and DR having had nearly half a season of experience in F1. Its not DR's fault that the HRT is a piece of garbage, sure he's at the back of the pack, for anyone else to expect otherwise in the HRT is just ludicrous. I think Red Bull had a good idea by giving him some F1 seat time via HRT but the logical next step is to put him into an actually competitive machine to see how DR will do further up the field.

Mind you if Toro Rosso is sold then some drivers may be out in the cold and DR will probably be just one of them.

[OZ_HCR32]

I just have the feeling that if Vergne can give engineers good feedback and gel with RBR engineering staff then I think he can jump Disco Dan

Dan is doing a good job at HRT but I can see them leaving him there and giving Vergne Sebs seat at STR. By mid year they will be able to look at how each is going with regards to driving development etc and the best candidate from STR or Dan from HRT may get the nod for RBR in 2013

[Born Racer]

I think he's doing a really good job from what I've observed (and I have been trying to observe). Consistently running much better than Liuzzi when it matters (in the race). It would be a pity if he didn't race next year, even if only partly from the perspective that there was no point sticking him in the HRT for him to not have time to reap the rewards of the continuity.

[strider]

For various reasons I didn't get to see much of either Ricciardo or Vergne in British F3, but elsewhere (not another forum) I've been putting the comparison to someone else. She said JEV was better and, "Much better than Daniel... Quite the best driver I've seen in F3 in a very long time."

I wouldn't like to be the man who calls the shots on these things for Red Bull - Dr Marko? I agree with Born Racer that Ricciardo has done a good job at HRT and probably finished off Liuzzi's F1 career.

So what do you do? Drop one of the current Toro Rosso drivers? For some reason I've never warmed to Buemi, so I'd keep Alguersuari. Besides, he has all the other attributes that an F1 driver needs these days in spades.

[kart_racer]

I really don't know whats happened to Luizzi. A very talented driver who really is not performing.

Maybe he is at a low point in his career (which he is really) and really does not know how to pull himself out of it.

[bella]

Originally Posted by strider

For various reasons I didn't get to see much of either Ricciardo or Vergne in British F3, but elsewhere (not another forum) I've been putting the comparison to someone else. She said JEV was better and, "Much better than Daniel... Quite the best driver I've seen in F3 in a very long time."

agree wholeheartedly. vergne's just got a bit more... fight about him. the monza fr3.5 race this year (well worth a look if you can find it) when he won against ricciardo, but was penalised for avoiding an avoidable accident was just classic vergne. especially the way he handled himself afterwards, pure class. totally converted me from being a slight sceptic to a full scale believer.

sorry this is a ricciardo thread, isn't it

regarding liuzzi... has he ever managed to reproduce the amount of promise he showed in karting and pre-f1?