New FIA Formula Two series for 2009!!

[Mekola]

The thing may be a political but moved our minds in order about why are a quantity of so-called spec-"Formula Two" series with higher or medium BHP engines (GP2 - WSR - Euro F3000 - Superleague - International Masters), instead having a proper F2 at all.

Alas, it could be interesting to analyse the case of Formula 3 too, why become almost-a-Dallara-spec-series. It's not to bashing the superb work of the Varano de Melegari company, but to move series organizers why we finished in such a situation.

[Pete Fenelon]

> why we finished in such a situation.

Remember, Dallara had just come out of F1 and had the ability to build customer cars to the highest standards. Reynard was gearing up for Champcar and probably had its eye off the ball a bit, and although Ralt used to build the cars beautifully Ralt was part of the March group by then and the '92/3 Ralts were basically Andy Thorby's cars, not Ron's.

Dallara had been a straw in the wind in Europe for a couple of years; it was only when Steve Arnold brought one over to the UK and made it look good (he was no star, and putting it second on the grid at Thruxton implied it was a seriously quick car) on our control tyres that the tipping point occurred.

It was almost inevitable that someone, frustrated with Ralt and Reynard, would bring one over here - and from there on I think Dallara were bound to dominate F3 as soon as someone had demonstrated that the car could work on UK tyres.

If you ever wondered why there's so many Ralt RT37-based cars on the hills... you could get one very cheaply from mid-93

By the end of the '93 season there was almost no point in anyone competing with them.

I'm sure the recent Lola/Dome and the current Mygale could be developed into championship-winning cars, but it'd take serious budget. Play safe and buy a Dallara?

[Mekola]

Well, Barry Walsh though the opposite

[ivanalesi]

Well, it's a great idea to change the name. Very often, ppl on the street or sponsors are quite confused what is FBMW, what is GP2... In fact, the Formula 3 name is more popular, because ppl call open-wheelers - formulas and when it says 3, they naturally assume you have just a step to F1. So GP2 is a bit confusing, even how to pronounce it in many languages, somehow Bernie and Flavio didn't promote the full name to be Grand Prix 2. So it will be great idea to go the F3 way, the FIA makes the standard rules and then everybody starts making his series by those rules. I would rather prefer Formula 4 Italia by Renault, then just Formula Renault. Same goes to WSbR, F2 by Renault. It says, these drivers are just a step of being one of those 20 racing in the premium F1 series. I thought it's a mistake with the budget, but now it surely seems that this FIA press-release has only one function, and it's political, but it's not a bad idea to bring back this name. It's was all pretty successful for FIM, with 500, 250 and 125, then they did the same in MotoX with MX1 to MX3, well they messed up the order, but still it's better than WSbR...

[Mekola]

Originally Posted by ivanalesi

SO GP2 is a bit confusing, even how to pronounce it in many languages, somehow Bernie and Flavio didn't promote the full name to be Grand Prix 2.

Well, during the second part of the 1990s, GP2, as Grand Prix 2 was a kinda wonderful Formula One game made by Geoff Crammond and its crew. The game was originally designed for 1994 (and 1996 update) seasons, but was the first one where programmers devoted several mods, thing that made the game groovy versatile and popular. That adds a reason to the confusion with the series name and the F1 game (both worth to see IMHO).

But about the name, generally are spelt the initials, that vary from language to language. Here in Spanish you could hear as "jepedous", for example.

[Kai]

Formula 2, GP1, what next?

[ivanalesi]

In the Cyrillic languages, it should be... gypy dve... I dont know how to make a transcription in English for you to have an idea, but believe me, it doesn't help Vitaly Petrov In fact, when we have to do a report in our press, we type GP2 in latin, not in Cyrillic, because it doesn't sound right spelled in Cyrillic. On Grand Prix 2, the game, I think that FIA holds the rights for the Grand Prix name, so the game used this name for some license fee. If not, MicroProse, the company who developed the game along with the famous Geoff Crammond, doesn't exist anymore, so the license fee for the name would be peanuts. I think Flav and Bernie didn't try much, believing some day soon it will become F2, and who wouldn't considering it's success? Anyway, the FIA think it's possible and put the ASNs into the equation, so I guess they are talking about many F2 championships, not just one! Now they aim on every category from FRenault to GP2!

[the sniper]

I thought that it was called GP2 because if it was an official FIA championship (i.e. FIA Formula 2) the commercial rights would have to be put up for tender. Obviously Bernie and Flavio didn't want to have to bid to run their own idea.

[the sniper]

Sorry to double post.

In Autosport today they noted that when Formula 3000 became a spec series in 1996 the 'Formula' was officially dropped by the FIA, it became just F3000.

So does that mean that Formula 2 won't be a spec series? Or is it just an oversight on the part of the FIA?

[JamesRamone]

Originally Posted by the sniper

Sorry to double post.

In Autosport today they noted that when Formula 3000 became a spec series in 1996 the 'Formula' was officially dropped by the FIA, it became just F3000.

So does that mean that Formula 2 won't be a spec series? Or is it just an oversight on the part of the FIA?

Hmm very interesting, we'l have to see

[Miko]

http://www.italiaracing.net/notizia.asp?id=19815&ca

it looks like mygale buiding the new car!

[the sniper]

If the translations I have seen are correct, this article assumes that there will only be one chassis manufacturer. If this is a spec series it's pointless, the only reason this would make sense if it was open to all engine/chassis manufacturers, this could then act as a route in to F1 for teams and manufacturers. Another Spec series does not help anybody...

If this was open, the FIA could test the method they plan to use to control budgets in F1 in future.

I have not found a good translation for this line, I'd be glad if someone could help:
Per Mygale, la F.2 sarebbe il primo progetto di vettura dal potenziale elevato.

[META4]

Per Mygale, la F.2 sarebbe il primo progetto di vettura dal potenziale elevato

For Mygale, the F.2 would be the first "high Level" project , which means it is the first project for Mygale with a big car, a lot of Horse power, until now Mygale has been working only on FBmw,F3

[the sniper]

Thanks META4

[Mekola]

Originally Posted by Miko

http://www.italiaracing.net/notizia.asp?id=19815&ca

it looks like mygale buiding the new car!

Wonder... who will test the prototype???

[Pete Fenelon]

Well, well, well.

The FIA invitation to tender seems to bear out all my fears about the series.

- it's one-make, obviously
- it's arrive-and-drive - so no teams
- the 200k(ish) euros is a contribution towards a manufacturer-funded series

Smells like Formula Palmer Audi on a bigger scale. What a huge success that was - remember the dream of Euro FPA, anyone?

About the only positive thing I can find to say about it is that they're aiming at 400bhp, and long life, which might at least mean interesting engines rather than grotty little 2.0 four-cylinders whining around like unrestricted overgrown F3s.

[duke_toaster]

I've had a look at the actual invitation to tender, I've just had a thumb through (it's 74 pages) but here's the basic info.

One hour FP, One hour race, One race of 175km
Two-day race weekend
There will be "teams" as far as paint jobs are concerned but they won't be running the cars
To ensure that all the cars are identical, the idea is that the drivers will be picking car keys out of a bowl on saturday morning.
3 sets of dry tyres per race weekend.
400hp is the target power and they don't want to have engine rebuilds during the season. What about getting some old F3000 engines and rev-limiting them a lot?

There's a set of tech regs that just seem like the 2009 F1 rules with bits replaced with "TBC" and other changes.

[Pete Fenelon]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

I
To ensure that all the cars are identical, the idea is that the drivers will be picking car keys out of a bowl on saturday morning.

How splendidly 70s-wife-swapping

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

400hp is the target power and they don't want to have engine rebuilds during the season. What about getting some old F3000 engines and rev-limiting them a lot?

I'm predicting something like one of the four-litre "production" engines that have been let into LMP2 (but not used!) this year, somewhat detuned. Think of the mileage you put on one at Le Mans - it's more than the new F2 will do all season.

My hunch is a 4.0 BMW V8 - after all, who's the manufacturer on the up in F1, and who needs a formula above their 'introductory' one?

I also note that there's not much more than a week to choose from the ITT responses. Which makes me think there's already been a certain degree of pre-qualification going on behind closed doors, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was already a tacit 'preferred bid'.

[Asa]

I think the FIA already has a bidder ready to take it up. But in fairness to all (i.e. politics) they opened it up for tender.

[META4]

and who do you think it is?

[Albeckinho]

Mygale.

[Go_For_Pole]

That would be the chassis vendor, not the "manufacturer" that FIA expects to take up 20% of the chassis space and the series naming rights. However, if italiaracing's article about Mygale is correct then it can well be BMW behind this.

The autosport article mentions teams in pretty much the A1GP kind of way, ie arrive at track, take a chassis and run it for the weekend. In A1GP teams do make a difference so that could well apply to F2, the crucial parameter being how many teams are attracted by a 200k price tag.

The other thing which is crucial but not clarified (at least in the autosport article) is if the races are part of the GP weekends or not. Actually, up until now it has never occured to me who has the right to "shape" the GP weekends, FIA or Bernie. I would imagine that's Bernie's field which means that F2 may have to go alone or as part of another FIA backed race package (WTCC maybe).

And then of course there is the small issue that Bernie can always "arrange" in his way that the GP2 champion gets a F1 seat, I just can't see FIA having the same effectiveness in that.

[META4]

To be honest i do not think companies well established like Dallara would be interested in a new championship like Formula 2 , where they have to bring the cars and handle the cars after the races, looking for sponsorships.... that can be done only by an "Outsider", a company who has not yet reach a certain level of notoriety.

Could you imagine the financial risks they have to take over theirs shoulders for this championship : Development and manufacuring of race cars, Marketing side of the organisation , and also the logistic side ,maitenance of the cars to make it more realistic hiring peoples,pull the money for the development and the manufacturing of 20-25 racing cars, rent of buy some (5-6) trucks to transports the cars, find a good workshop where you can park all this cars ...

I agree on a point which is if this project is serious then there is definitly a big company behind it (BMW maybe) as i do not think that Mygale is strong enought to handle the financial risks by its own

They also have to find some space on TV Time between Formula Master,F3 Euroseries,GP2,WSR...

They will always find some teams for this kind of series , as they are always some teams who are not brillant but they are always ready to jump in a new project and expect some Glory out of it.... probably some backmakers from WSR (KTR could be a good one) also probably some of the Formula Master teams

[Pete Fenelon]

Originally Posted by META4

They will always find some teams for this kind of series , as they are always some teams who are not brillant but they are always ready to jump in a new project and expect some Glory out of it.... probably some backmakers from WSR (KTR could be a good one) also probably some of the Formula Master teams

...except it's not a series for teams - there is no role for them in this setup, other than perhaps the names on the entries. They won't be maintaining the cars, they won't be transporting them, they won't be developing setups for them... etc. etc. etc.

This is arrive'n'drive.

[duke_toaster]

I'm guessing that the series as opposed to the entrants (to use the FIA terminology) will be doing corporate hostility, then?