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Old 6 Sep 2021, 12:34 (Ref:4072326)   #976
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The Enforcer had suggested, according to rumour, the Gen3 will never race. The pin is likely to be pulled sometime next year after the prototypes roll around for a while.

What would be the new direction though????
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Old 6 Sep 2021, 16:16 (Ref:4072368)   #977
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What would be the new direction though????
Keep racing the existing vehicles until SC can come up with a better idea?

I'm still quite unenthused with the idea of the two Gen 3 vehicles having different engine capacities but the same rev limit. Seems quite dodgy and quite the missed opportunity to expand beyond samey crossplane crank V8s.

Any true Gen 3 plan, if it is going to be coupes, really needs to get the Nissan 400Z and the Toyota Supra on the grid to avoid an excessive Americana bias. Turbocharged six cylinders, alongside V8s, need to embraced due to their superior market relevance. Even turbo fours need to be considered -- the Mercedes C63 AMG is going to a four-cylinder hybrid after all. That was one thing the original next-gen Supercars plan had correct.

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Old 7 Sep 2021, 01:41 (Ref:4072419)   #978
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The Enforcer had suggested, according to rumour, the Gen3 will never race. The pin is likely to be pulled sometime next year after the prototypes roll around for a while.

What would be the new direction though????
Whoever the enforcer is has he been reading this forum because that is what I think and wrote as well. Why don't people use given names here?
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Old 7 Sep 2021, 01:45 (Ref:4072420)   #979
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Whoever the enforcer is has he been reading this forum because that is what I think and wrote as well. Why don't people use given names here?
Are you taking the pi..? you dont know who the enforcer is? Go away and come back when you know something about Australian Motorsport....
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Old 7 Sep 2021, 01:48 (Ref:4072421)   #980
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The idea of vastly different motor configurations ditches the idea of evening the performance between them and re-introduces the idea of class racing which seems to be a universal no no these days world wide. No none has ever explained to me why that is but that's life.
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Old 7 Sep 2021, 02:52 (Ref:4072425)   #981
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What would be the new direction though????
Most likely that it will still be V8 Camaros and Mustangs, just that by delaying until 2023 it will allow Ford to use its next generation Mustang.
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Old 7 Sep 2021, 03:51 (Ref:4072431)   #982
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Most likely that it will still be V8 Camaros and Mustangs, just that by delaying until 2023 it will allow Ford to use its next generation Mustang.
If Supercars delay much longer Touring Car Masters will have more recent machinery racing.
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Old 7 Sep 2021, 04:51 (Ref:4072436)   #983
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If Supercars delay much longer Touring Car Masters will have more recent machinery racing.
Where the parity is FINE

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Old 7 Sep 2021, 15:18 (Ref:4072511)   #984
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The idea of vastly different motor configurations ditches the idea of evening the performance between them and re-introduces the idea of class racing which seems to be a universal no no these days world wide.
GT3 and GTE are very successful with a wide variety of configurations. LM-Hypercar and LM-Daytona Hybrid will also be using balance-of-performance to balance a wide variety of configurations.
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Old 7 Sep 2021, 15:54 (Ref:4072518)   #985
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But they aren't turbo fours against normally aspirated V8"s. You are dreaming if you think that can work.
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Old 7 Sep 2021, 21:40 (Ref:4072542)   #986
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But they aren't turbo fours against normally aspirated V8"s. You are dreaming if you think that can work.
It worked before. It indeed was a turbo four (V4) Porsche 919 against a normally aspirated V8 Toyota TS040 in the Le Mans P1 class in 2014 and 2015, there were even turbo diesels from Audi and Peugeot too!

In GT3, you've got multiple twin-turbo V8s dialled back to the point where they are equivalent to a normally aspirated 4.0L flat-six (the Porsche 911). There is a good mixture there -- it can definitely be done.

Balance-of-performance doesn't have to perfect, there will always be politics. But as long as it is good enough and there is a good variety of winners, everyone will feel they have a chance to win regardless of what configuration they choose.

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Old 8 Sep 2021, 02:39 (Ref:4072567)   #987
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Supercars took how long to arrive at BOP for 4 valve V8's against 2 valve engines?
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Old 8 Sep 2021, 07:32 (Ref:4072575)   #988
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I seem to remember one Pee Brock and Larrykin did ok in v8 commies against turbo sierras.. even winning a race on a mountain, and a Mr Moffat doing pretty good in one when he took it to Europe. Up against turbo Fords and 6 cyl Bee Ems etc
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Old 8 Sep 2021, 15:15 (Ref:4072622)   #989
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Supercars took how long to arrive at BOP for 4 valve V8's against 2 valve engines?
Supercars' politics seemed to be fundamentally opposed to making the DOHC alloy blocks competitive... They even added ballast to them, so alloy block runners couldn't benefit from having lighter engines! DOHC runners were also prohibited from using variable valve timing even when the production engine used it. The alloy DOHC V8s were also prohibited from using higher compression ratio or higher rpms, which would have allowed them to match or exceed the required power more easily.

There are a number of BOP measures Supercars could have used to make Nissan, Mercedes and Volvo more competitive. For instance, allowing a higher cylinder compression ratio of say 12:1 instead of 10:1, and allowing higher maximum rpm, say 8250rpm instead of 7500rpm. Yet most of the time Supercars implemented the exact opposite, doing things like adding engine ballast to slow down the newcomers instead of speeding them up!

Even now, Supercars are planning to give the LS engine a very favourable rod-to-stroke ratio (with the engine destroked as far as possible), while giving the Coyote engine a very unfavourable rod-to-stroke ratio (with the stroke pretty much maxxed out). It is quite concerning, in terms of BOP politics and engine reliability. Since when is an engine that has been stroked out as far as possible, dramatically increasing conrod stresses, as reliable as one that has been destroked as far as possible, dramatically reducing conrod stresses!? Especially when the former still has a lower swept capacity.

When, however, there is a motivation to make the different configurations competitive & reliable without favouritism it can definitely be done.

IF Supercars make it a priority that the Toyota Supra and Nissan 400Z have to be competitive and winning races, by adding boost, adding rpm, and reducing weight until they do so (conversely adding weight and reducing rpm of Camaro and Mustang) then BOP can absolutely work.

This is how proper BOP like that used at Le Mans or in GT3 or TCR works after all. The weight of the Toyota LM-Hypercar, the weight of the Alpine LM-Hypercar, the air restrictor diameter of the Ferrari 488 GTE, the min weight of the Porsche 911 GTE, the max boost of the Alfa Romeo Giulietta -- they are adjusted constantly, nearly between every race meeting.

On the other hand, Supercars seemed to have little to no interest in making sure the Nissans and Mercedes were winning races on a regular basis.

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 8 Sep 2021 at 15:34.
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Old 9 Sep 2021, 00:36 (Ref:4072700)   #990
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Don't think that you're painting the past in quite the right light there Fireworks. The manufacturers you mention came into the sport with engine weights already in place, rev limits already in place and a range of other tech regs already in place.

Clearly they thought that they could be competitive within those rules, otherwise why enter? Difficulty back then and would be the same currently, is that when only one team is running make X, the question of parity between makes can be muddied by the question of parity between teams.

Erebus running Mercs had a similar outcome results-wise and performance-wise as Erebus running other brands around similar times - it is only more recently that Erebus team performance improved.

Kelly Racing running Nissans had a similar outcome results-wise and performance-wise as Kelly Racing running other brands around similar times and since.

Garry Rogers running Volvos had a similar outcome results-wise and performance-wise to Garry Rogers running other brands around similar times (better than either Kelly or Erebus)

Not convinced about a GT3 style BoP structure for Supercars but agree that the series does need a structure in place to allow for a variety of vehicles / engines if it is to prosper going forward.
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Old 9 Sep 2021, 08:32 (Ref:4072744)   #991
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Very few people realise the differences between a two valve motor and the 4 valve motor because it is rarely spoken about. Down low the two valve motor will stomp on any 4 valve of the same capacity (NA) but if the upper rpm limit is too low then the 4 valve loses out because it performs better at higher RPM. That MB and Nissan motors never worked properly in SC is not surprising given they were handicapped from day one by the 4 valve configuration.
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Old 11 Sep 2021, 00:54 (Ref:4073002)   #992
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Very few people realise the differences between a two valve motor and the 4 valve motor because it is rarely spoken about. Down low the two valve motor will stomp on any 4 valve of the same capacity (NA) but if the upper rpm limit is too low then the 4 valve loses out because it performs better at higher RPM. That MB and Nissan motors never worked properly in SC is not surprising given they were handicapped from day one by the 4 valve configuration.
Yep, plus the benefit of only one camshaft mounted low in the engine for the pushrod engines, whereas the 4 valve DOHC engines have 4 camshafts, so four times the weight, mounted up high - so heavier and a higher centre of gravity.

Pushrod engines may well be considered "old" (although overhead cam engines aren't much younger) but there are ARE some benefits, particular when there is a set of regulations containing rev limits to manage costs.
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Old 12 Sep 2021, 18:37 (Ref:4073397)   #993
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Very few people realise the differences between a two valve motor and the 4 valve motor because it is rarely spoken about. Down low the two valve motor will stomp on any 4 valve of the same capacity (NA) but if the upper rpm limit is too low then the 4 valve loses out because it performs better at higher RPM. That MB and Nissan motors never worked properly in SC is not surprising given they were handicapped from day one by the 4 valve configuration.
Is that 100% true in all cases? So a 1995 Corolla 16-valve 1.6L would have less low down torque than a 1995 VW-Golf 8 valve 1.6L?

It seems curious that almost all economy car engines -- including General Motors' own normally aspirated four cylinders -- would bother with a more expensive 16 valve layout if it didn't bring any significant benefits, even in low rpm tractability which is important in an economy car.

There are some engines like the VW 4-cylinder, the VW VR6, and the Alfa Romeo Busso V6, which came with both 2-valve per cylinder and later 4-valve per cylinder versions, so it would be curious to compare dyno plots for the two layouts.

Here's one:

8V VW GTI, tuned


16V VW GTI, tuned


It would seem the 15% loss in low rpm torque is worth the peak power being 15% superior. To compare engines of the same era, I'd guess you'd need to put a 16V Toyota 4AGE car on the dyno on the same day as the 8V VW GTI, to compare low rpm torque of the two 1.6L motors and observe the difference of two layouts between competitor engines.

[PS. Why aren't we racing interesting cars like Golfs and Corollas in the ATCC again? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebNBhr2ZWNE Their omission is most curious!]

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Old 12 Sep 2021, 19:13 (Ref:4073412)   #994
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The 8-valve GTI engine seems to produce anywhere from 7-8 more hp all the way up to ~5700rpm, where it finally gets overtaken by the 16-valve GTI engine. The latter is very superior to the 8-valve between 5700rpm and 7000rpm, which undoubtedly reflects why most racing categories e.g., Formula One, LMP, MotoGP, prefer 4-valve or 5-valve (where permitted) 4-stroke piston engine layouts.

However, the 4-valve Supercars runners always had the option of fitting smaller valves (& smaller ports) to improve torque and increase port velocity, and in Todd Kelly's series on designing their Ford racing engine he seemed to give the impression that Kelly Racing had designed their 2-valve combustion chamber to fit the biggest valves they could, likewise he gave the impression they had opened the ports up a lot too. So that seems curious.

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Old 13 Sep 2021, 04:56 (Ref:4073537)   #995
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Is that 100% true in all cases? So a 1995 Corolla 16-valve 1.6L would have less low down torque than a 1995 VW-Golf 8 valve 1.6L?
You literally undermine any argument you make after this... Toyota are famous for making the most woefully torqueless engines, basically wishing to put motorcycle characteristics into their road cars due to heads designed by.... Yamaha

Toyotas VVTi engines, without a turbo, can't suck the skin off a custard.
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Old 14 Sep 2021, 05:43 (Ref:4073769)   #996
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But they aren't turbo fours against normally aspirated V8"s. You are dreaming if you think that can work.
You were saying?



This kind of regressive thinking is a cancer. What's the point on doing anything (as a series) if there's a steadfast belief that there are no other possible options to explore?
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Old 14 Sep 2021, 23:47 (Ref:4073962)   #997
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This kind of regressive thinking is a cancer. What's the point on doing anything (as a series) if there's a steadfast belief that there are no other possible options to explore?
There are plenty of options out there but very few want to change from the status quo. Class racing used to be the only racing and allowed a whole field to mix it up but that seems to be banned now for some reason.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 03:03 (Ref:4073985)   #998
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There are plenty of options out there but very few want to change from the status quo. Class racing used to be the only racing and allowed a whole field to mix it up but that seems to be banned now for some reason.
I think sadly the issue with class racing now has become one of the class cars not being much less costly to run with the downside that TV cameras focus on the outright battles more than the class runners.... therefore class cars running round at the back get limited TV (ie sponsor) exposure. So bottom line = harder to get sponsors on the basis of lack of TV exposure.

That is my understanding anyway.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 05:32 (Ref:4073998)   #999
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I think sadly the issue with class racing now has become one of the class cars not being much less costly to run with the downside that TV cameras focus on the outright battles more than the class runners.... therefore class cars running round at the back get limited TV (ie sponsor) exposure. So bottom line = harder to get sponsors on the basis of lack of TV exposure.

That is my understanding anyway.
Class racing if done well is great for the teams, sponsors and fans. Have a look at IMSA where they have very fast (and relatively expensive) in the same race as GT3 cars which are relatively more affordable. It is great racing from a spectators perspective of watching the faster cars negotiate the slower cars. The lower class cars get their own TV because they are having their own battles, as well as when the fast cars have to overtake.

You cant tell me that BJR and Kelly Grove are happy about the TV coverage they get when running around the back half of the field?
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 11:25 (Ref:4074059)   #1000
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I think sadly the issue with class racing now has become one of the class cars not being much less costly to run with the downside that TV cameras focus on the outright battles more than the class runners.... therefore class cars running round at the back get limited TV (ie sponsor) exposure. So bottom line = harder to get sponsors on the basis of lack of TV exposure.

That is my understanding anyway.
Class racing has been THE selling point of Le Mans since 2000, and its subservient series.
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