Supercars Gen 3 (2022)

[Chuck.U.Farley]

The only thing I can think of that would save Supercars is if they ripped all the aero off and went to a circa ~2005 level of it - ie enough to pin the thing down but not too much that once a car gets a decent lead, thats all she wrote due to the wash upsetting cars behind..

Maybe a 7500rpm rev limit on the engines and ban on exotic materials used inside (but i'd venture to say that the cost of donks is peanuts in the total bill of expenses of running a supercar team)

And bring the suspension back a couple of notches so once they dial in a setting, they cant change it again during the race.

I don't see it going forward for long in it's current state though, and with no local manufacturers to spruik product for - maybe a us IMSA style formula might be the way forward?

[S griffin]

I think they could cut back the aero, no need for that much. It’s a great series and does give us action, but could do with more to make overtaking not so hard

Nothing wrong with the power though, with less grip it wouldn’t matter how much power they had.

And I see nothing wrong with changing settings either, although I could see why some would want to restrict it.

Hopefully the 2022 rules goes someway to improving what is already a great product. Just as long as it keeps it’s identity, what may work somewhere, might not work there

[Casper]

I know I keep saying it but unless they have a clear plan where the series is going beyond the Mustang and Camaro/Holden cars being run now it simply has no future. GM are now saying that their R&D spend is larger for electric than conventional IC cars so it is a good bet the Camaro will end as forecast by some. Ford's new Mustang does not look like a good thing at all for racing but does look like it could be the end of the Mustang as we know it. This is only a supposition on my part and Ford have not said they are going to end the present model line of IC cars.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Casper

I know I keep saying it but unless they have a clear plan where the series is going beyond the Mustang and Camaro/Holden cars being run now it simply has no future. GM are now saying that their R&D spend is larger for electric than conventional IC cars so it is a good bet the Camaro will end as forecast by some. Ford's new Mustang does not look like a good thing at all for racing but does look like it could be the end of the Mustang as we know it. This is only a supposition on my part and Ford have not said they are going to end the present model line of IC cars.

The end of IC is still a long long way off.

[S griffin]

I agree, we have enough of a market for them that they ain’t going anywhere yet. I can see IC staying in the series as it would still work

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by chunterer

The end of IC is still a long long way off.

Agree. Interesting quote here from Toto Wolff that the motor industry is looking at ICE with Hybrid as well as electric. Mentioned it to a couple of engineer type friends in the industry and it seems that Hybrid include IC is regarded as maybe a better way to go than full electric.

Makes sense in many ways and I believe that none of the current govt regulations prevent hybrids in the future - only purely ICE vehicles that can't be sold in europe when the laws come in.

So maybe the V8 plus hybrid path makes a whole lot of sense?

[Casper]

Originally Posted by chunterer

The end of IC is still a long long way off.

You are correct, my point is what cars are they going to base the series on, the motors are not the issue. When the current cars the series is based on are no longer in production they better have an answer or it is a waste of time bringing in a new generation of regulation to build them.

[S griffin]

I just hope they keep the current engines for a while. But they also need to get with the times, without losing what makes the sport tick

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I just hope they keep the current engines for a while.

Shouldn't Supercars adopt more efficient and lightweight direct-injected alloy block engines like the facelift-Mustang Ford Coyote and Chevrolet LT? Saving 30kg+ on the front axle and increasing thermal efficiency using direct injection is a win, win surely?

How would Supercars acheive the targeted 100kg Gen 3 weight reduction without alloy engines? Story has already confirmed DJR are working on a Coyote-based engine (hopefully featuring the sonorous flatplane crankshaft from the Voodoo variant!).

I think using the direct-injection to increase horsepower will be a key part of Supercars' plan to produce 600bhp from a more production-based engine, so the engines will no longer require expensive racing components like roller needle bearings, aftermarket crankshafts (etc) to get the power output.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Shouldn't Supercars adopt more efficient and lightweight direct-injected alloy block engines like the facelift-Mustang Ford Coyote and Chevrolet LT? Saving 30kg+ on the front axle and increasing thermal efficiency using direct injection is a win, win surely?

How would Supercars acheive the targeted 100kg Gen 3 weight reduction without alloy engines?

Supercars is at least looking at this, according to this article from September this year.

I'd suggest that if they're publicly saying that they're looking at it, the decision is near-as-dammit made.

Number of other areas that weight can be reduced too, as mentioned in the article - they generally need to be heavied up to meet the minimum weight.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Casper

You are correct, my point is what cars are they going to base the series on, the motors are not the issue. When the current cars the series is based on are no longer in production they better have an answer or it is a waste of time bringing in a new generation of regulation to build them.

I've been saying for 6 months that 2 litre cars are the best option.

[Backagain]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

I've been saying for 6 months that 2 litre cars are the best option.

The series is called Supercars, not production based buzzbox cars, 2 litre cars just do not have the raw excitement and wow factor of the V8's. 2 litre cars are not the answer to this question.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

FFS, the people in this country.

What ******* wow factor do supercars have?

Are you so devoid of any sensation in your life that you actually think supercars have "wow factor"?

Maybe marginally at a corner of two here and there at some tracks, but that's it.

Whatever spectacle supercars has over TCR or any 2 litre class is minimal and absolutely doesn't transfer on tv.

What kind of racing fan that takes themselves seriously actually refers to 2 litre cars as "buzz boxes"? Someone who isn't one.

That sort of comment just show a complete lack of understanding of the point of touring car racing. "Supercars" is just a name to refer to a particularly touring car class.

Do you know how much of a "wow factor" supercars have?

If I told you of a touring cars class so **** that they plod around a dry Albert Park slower than an F1 car does behind the safety car in torrential rain, no doubt you'd assume a TCR. Yes, but you wouldn't get supercars are just as **** as well.

"Supercars" are actually cars like Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches and so forth. Not Commodores and Falcons, which are actually every bit the "grocery, shopping, hairdresser" cars 2 litre cars are. But you don't know that yet.

That comment just highlights to me that supercars fans aren't actually car racing fans.

You can't be.

Do you want to know why Adelaide's gone? Because supercars are not that popular and they're irrelevant.

[Backagain]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

FFS, the people in this country.

What ******* wow factor do supercars have?

Are you so devoid of any sensation in your life that you actually think supercars have "wow factor"?

Maybe marginally at a corner of two here and there at some tracks, but that's it.

Whatever spectacle supercars has over TCR or any 2 litre class is minimal and absolutely doesn't transfer on tv.

What kind of racing fan that takes themselves seriously actually refers to 2 litre cars as "buzz boxes"? Someone who isn't one.

That sort of comment just show a complete lack of understanding of the point of touring car racing. "Supercars" is just a name to refer to a particularly touring car class.

Do you know how much of a "wow factor" supercars have?

If I told you of a touring cars class so **** that they plod around a dry Albert Park slower than an F1 car does behind the safety car in torrential rain, no doubt you'd assume a TCR. Yes, but you wouldn't get supercars are just as **** as well.

"Supercars" are actually cars like Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches and so forth. Not Commodores and Falcons, which are actually every bit the "grocery, shopping, hairdresser" cars 2 litre cars are. But you don't know that yet.

That comment just highlights to me that supercars fans aren't actually car racing fans.

You can't be.

Do you want to know why Adelaide's gone? Because supercars are not that popular and they're irrelevant.

Wow, such a hair trigger.
I won't stoop to personal insults, I'll leave that to you.
Sit down and watch the top 10 shootout winning laps at Bathurst for the last three years and then tell me there's no wow factor.
Thanks for admitting that Supercars are more spectacular than TCR or 2 litre cars, very big of you.
Maybe you should just have a BEX and a lie down, you'll feel much better.

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

Once again 2liter pushing the TCR bandwagon. When will he/she get that TCR already exists and go follow them instead....

Supercars will never run 4cylinder hatchbacks, I own one and i don't aspire to race one. Give me a V8 Mustang or Camaro, hell yeah that be great fun.

And the wow factor is their aggressive look and the roaring V8 sound. Not to mention they are pretty quick around the track compared to most cars.

If TCR is the answer, heaps of fans will go follow them and eventually the top teams will follow. But i'd bet a friendly wager we will still be arguing why Supercars are the top dog in Australia in 10 years...

[Mixer]

Exactly my point. TCR exists so why try to make Supercars more like it. Let the fans vote with their feet and the race teams work out which series is more financially viable.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

Anyways back on topic, the new regulations looks fantastic from a V8 Supercar fans point of view.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

Supercars will never run 4 cylinder hatchbacks

Never say never, it has a habit of biting you. I have no idea if they will run them or not but I wouldn't bet against it. Everyone has an opinion and mine is that they (SC) had better decide and make public where they see the series going in the long run. Maybe the reason for not doing that is because of the absolute certainty for the platform they had and that has been taken away and now they are faced with no platform that they think represents what SC has always been, a V8 four door family car which now cannot be used because it does not exist.

The drive train is another issue altogether with the evolution of the electric car by every manufacturer even the so called Super Car OEM's now getting on board with the program. Until the platform SC is going to be based on is decided uncertainty will rule. Who is going to keep investing in a platform that has a very definite use by date?

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Casper

The drive train is another issue altogether with the evolution of the electric car by every manufacturer even the so called Super Car OEM's now getting on board with the program. Until the platform SC is going to be based on is decided uncertainty will rule. Who is going to keep investing in a platform that has a very definite use by date?

Well except that VW is out of all motorsport worldwide now, and Audi and BMW are both out of Formula E.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

I've been saying for 6 months that 2 litre cars are the best option.

Your opinion which others do not agree with and your opinion is not infallible by any stretch of the imagination including yours. Your quote does not represent the context it was written in and certainly does not represent in any way that I like or dislike two litre cars. Please don't put words into my mouth that I never intended and are totally out of context.

[S griffin]

I’m sure none of us think the Supercar format is perfect, but that doesn’t mean it’s all bad. Yes there are some areas it can improve on, but enough people still enjoy it, which is why there are still plenty watching it. TCR is unlikely to get the same viewing IMHO

[Sandgroper]

2 LTR Cars and Im done.

Over and out

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

Supercars will never run 4cylinder hatchbacks

Too late they already did.

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

2 LTR Cars and Im done.

See above, there was also the Nissan (the DR30 Skyline and Bluebird were four cylinders too, the HR31 was a 2 ltr 6-cylinder), the Volvo 240 and many others, I just don't understand what you have against 2 litre engines!?

You didn't have Jaguar fans kicking up a stink at 12-cylinder engines being banned in '93 (or did you!?). It was never acceptable to have such restrictive regulations and then not even include the BMW M5 any way even though it met the criteria, don't you agree?

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

Supercars will never run 4cylinder hatchbacks, I own one and i don't aspire to race one.

Is it a Civic Type R or similar? You ought to give a try on a hillcllimb or supersprint, or on a circuit like Paul Morris [link], that's what it's for... You might be surprised at how its laptime compares quite favourably to something like a HSV GTS that has 250 more kilowatts, and that even at a "lowly" 165 W/kg the Civic doesn't lack excitement... (Only 0.1s slower from 80-120 kph than the HSV too, despite the power deficit! )

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Backagain

The series is called Supercars, not production based buzzbox cars, 2 litre cars just do not have the raw excitement

These cars have 2 litre engines:


Compact thing, isn't it? About half the weight of a Boss 302 Windsor!


They seem pretty darn exciting to me!

You seem to be conflating the different issues!

2 litre turbo 650hp engine vs 5 litre NA 650 hp engine is one issue (heck Formula One cars only have 1.6 litre engines, yet I don't see people saying the 1000hp power output is insufficient). Coupe bodystyle vs hatchback body style is another issue. FWD vs RWD and hence max ~350hp for FWD is a third issue. Silhoutte vs production based is a forth issue.

They can still be 600bhp RWD Mustangs and Camaro silhoutte cars with 2 litre engines. It would just be the Ford Mustang Ecoboost Supercar instead of the Ford Mustang GT Supercar!

As the performance car market moves more and more towards turbocharged downsized engines, for example the Mercedes C63 AMG will be replacing its twin-turbo V8 for a single-turbo 2 litre 4-cylinder plus a hybrid system, it could be important for the Australian Touring Car Championship to keep up.

After all the ATCC is supposed to represent the market of enthusiast performance cars like the BMW 635csi, Mercedes 190E Cosworth, Jaguar XJS, Commodore SS, Mustang GT, Nissan Skyline, Corolla Trueno and indeed Civic Type R and so on is it not!?

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

2 LTR Cars and Im done.

Over and out

That's a bold statement.