$5 Million IndyCar Challenge at Las Vegas

[bjohnsonsmith]

The big difference with Stan Fox's crash and the subsequent aerial excursions of the Flying Dallaras, is Reynard continued to develop their cars season by season, while Dallara did absolutely nothing to rectify the problem of cars taking off.

[gttouring]

Sadly this is true after even mario's flip at indy in practice for whatever reason he drove it, the car got up and away end over end. And I don't remember any update or new trim tab added to prevent that. And that is but one example of many unaddressed airborne flips dallara suffered

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by gttouring

Sadly this is true after even mario's flip at indy in practice for whatever reason he drove it, the car got up and away end over end. And I don't remember any update or new trim tab added to prevent that. And that is but one example of many unaddressed airborne flips dallara suffered

Mario's car hit debris on the track from Kenny Brack's car.

This is not too disimilar, this car also hitting debris:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUnt7...eature=related

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

No one's denying it happens, just not with the fequency of the Flying Dallaras.

It happens in F1. Here's Mark Webber at Valencia last year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iHsCWAbtGs

Nobody is denying IT happens. Anyone that thinks open wheel formula racing is now or ever will be "completely safe" is a moron as far as I am concerned.

The human body can only take so much.

The point of all this which people want to gloss over in their desperate plea to keep the irl alive is that it's not just an incident here and there, after which changes are made or improvements sought. This is a chronic long standing issue that has been going on for years and years. Just watch all the irl crashes on youtube. Tim is going to try to link one incident here and there in CART 15 years ago to paper over all the long history of horrific bone crushing accidents and aerial flights in the irl and it falls short of reality here in 2011 and to act as though that is supposed to rationalize the pack foot to the floor racing on steep ovals at 225 mph in cars nose high ass down ready for takeoff.

The irl sat and encouraged all this along. The irl after all in the past has used huge crashes in it's promotional materials and tv ads.

After the accident people protested that action would be taken and things would be done. I was right all along about the irl. All we have gotten so far is a bunch of weaseling out of responsibility and a bunch of pr fluff, rationalization and excuses. It's just this time a fatality happened on live tv instead of in qualifying, practice or testing, so they got caught with their pants down.

They don't care, they never have cared and they never will care.

There will be more mewing and moaning and eventually this will fade from the headlines. Nothing will change. The people that need to be paid will be paid, drivers will be shamed into "performing" as rodeo randy already did this year and the circus will continue.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The big difference with Stan Fox's crash and the subsequent aerial excursions of the Flying Dallaras, is Reynard continued to develop their cars season by season, while Dallara did absolutely nothing to rectify the problem of cars taking off.

Good point.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

If tires do not cars normally will not take off, period.

ANY CAR, can fly as this sprint car shot shows.

Any car can fly, however the irl dallara darts have Gold frequent flyer status.

People aren't gettin' the big picture. When a dallara dart shatters over 50 people and wipes out dozens of people or more, that's it for motorsport in the USA.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Any car can fly, however the irl dallara darts have Gold frequent flyer status.

People aren't gettin' the big picture. When a dallara dart shatters over 50 people and wipes out dozens of people or more, that's it for motorsport in the USA.

The new car is meant to address these issues but as we see aero-kits delayed and the susequent rumour that the Honda 3.5L V8 will continue to be used, because Lotus can't produce their turbo engine, I'm seriously beginning to wonder about the new car - as it is I don't like it.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The new car is meant to address these issues but as we see aero-kits delayed and the susequent rumour that the Honda 3.5L V8 will continue to be used, because Lotus can't produce their turbo engine, I'm seriously beginning to wonder about the new car - as it is I don't like it.

Who does like it?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Who does like it?

Tony Cotman.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I don't buy that, F1 constructors build there cars to the formula rules but are constantly developing and improving the car, throughout the season. Dallara as a constructor should have pressed the importance of development work but instead stood still for years wth this car and I think that has a lot to do with them being a lower formula spec constructor. Both of their forays into F1 were failures.

Flat bottom cars are mandated by the rules. The IRL rules dictated flat bottomed cars were what they wanted and dallara and Panoz built cars to those rules.
Dallara's were predominant and over the few years they ran they were the preferred car. In the end everyone ended up running Dallara's and the series organisers made them a spec car, in an effort to reduce costs to teams.

That's not Dallara's fault. Besides, the cars are strong. While many may not like the design or thinks its ugly, the monocoques have been strong, standing up to crash punishment well. Even in Dan Wheldon's case the integrity of the survival cell remained.
In addition similar features like driver head surrounds etc are as much a part of the design as F1 cars, something that came out of the FIA research after the Senna accident.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Flat bottom cars are mandated by the rules. The IRL rules dictated flat bottomed cars were what they wanted and dallara and Panoz built cars to those rules.
Dallara's were predominant and over the few years they ran they were the preferred car. In the end everyone ended up running Dallara's and the series organisers made them a spec car, in an effort to reduce costs to teams.

That's not Dallara's fault. Besides, the cars are strong. While many may not like the design or thinks its ugly, the monocoques have been strong, standing up to crash punishment well. Even in Dan Wheldon's case the integrity of the survival cell remained.
In addition similar features like driver head surrounds etc are as much a part of the design as F1 cars, something that came out of the FIA research after the Senna accident.

I'm well aware of all that but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about continued development work on the car and this didn't happen with the Dallara.

Once it became apparent these cars could take off, what was done to rectify it? Nothing and I wouldn't be surprised if that was because non of those early aerial excursions by the Flying Dallaras, resulted in any fatalities. If they had I would like to think that a redesign like the one that occured after Senna's death would have taken place. As we all know Dallara did nothing.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Any car can fly, however the irl dallara darts have Gold frequent flyer status.

People aren't gettin' the big picture. When a dallara dart shatters over 50 people and wipes out dozens of people or more, that's it for motorsport in the USA.

Paranoid sillyness, or Chicken Littles of the world unite, at best.

[JHamilton]

I didn't see it mentioned but I may have missed it... the worst wrecks I have seen in the IRL have been on 1.5 mile banked ovals. These need to be eliminated or banked ovals in general. Not to say that there aren't changes that need to be made to the cars (Indy is plenty dangerous) but I feel like this is a huge issue. There is a reason they no longer race at Charlotte and Atlanta... too fast, too small.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I wonder, in their misguided fashion, the IRL didn't realise the banking at LVMS had been increased since Champ Car had raced there, in 2004/5?

I'm giving them too much credit.

[Paradise City]

Indycar should retain the banked ovals with a clear ban on tracks like 'dega still in effect of course.

The next accident a few years down the line could be just as much another Laguna or Toronto than a Fontana or a Vegas. Especially given Indycars growing infatuation with all things street, a whole slate of Torontoesque crowd pullers are in prospect. Getting rid of the banked tracks outright is the easy reaction but would serve no purpose but to distract us from proactive safety innovation at the track and on the cars.

[Mal]

I don't believe the frequency of these accidents is down to the Dallara, rather the series' desire to have the cars running closer together in a pack at full speed. It creates the perfect conditions for such accidents.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mal

I don't believe the frequency of these accidents is down to the Dallara, rather the series' desire to have the cars running closer together in a pack at full speed. It creates the perfect conditions for such accidents.

I presume you are referring to the airborne accidents? Some of them have been caused by cars runing over debris on the track and subsequently taking off.

[phathead]

Originally Posted by Mal

I don't believe the frequency of these accidents is down to the Dallara, rather the series' desire to have the cars running closer together in a pack at full speed. It creates the perfect conditions for such accidents.

But that is inherently because of the Dallara, and the small box the series has put the cars in.

When you effectively run a spec series, place a large number of drivers on a tight, fast track, this is what happens.

I'm wondering how effective the so-called "bumpers" on the new car will be. Seems to me that unless they were made out of kryptonite, there will still be wheel to wheel contact.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by phathead

But that is inherently because of the Dallara, and the small box the series has put the cars in.

When you effectively run a spec series, place a large number of drivers on a tight, fast track, this is what happens.

I'm wondering how effective the so-called "bumpers" on the new car will be. Seems to me that unless they were made out of kryptonite, there will still be wheel to wheel contact.

Double post and in wrong place. Very sorry.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Don't mean to jump the gun but in good taste, shouldn't this thread be closed?